Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

toyin, your questions are good.

my understanding is that the fundamentalist, strict, militant version of islam you describe is not only not the only version, but not the dominant, not the version most muslims in most muslim countries support. i'd bet my hat on that.

the tradition of commentary and hadith represents one side of the religious branches, where study and thought continue, even if, as in christianity and judaism, orthodox branches overrely on frozen texts.

. but more relevant is the modernist tendency everywhere in the muslim world since the erly 20th century, w figures like  mohammed ali in egypt or ataturk. the modernizing dominant tendency was in iraq, under the dictator sadam. it is certainly dominant throughout north africa, and lebanon. well, practically everywhere in the muslim world. i don't know why you'd want to focus on the extremists, who are, i agree, horrible, as if they themselves represent the whole of islam.

so, i'll give a jewish equivalent. we have orthodox, or what are called ultraorthodox. they hold beliefs and practice social ways like the islamists. no one would say they represent or encompass judaism, or all the jews, or the dominant tendency that defines the religion. same with boko haram or the others. i see them oppressing other muslims in their neck of the world; kidnapping other muslim children, holding them for ransom.

in some places islam and christian sections are at war, like the c.a.r. but the real work of islamists is not jihad but power and money.

there are islamist parties that are not violent or extreme: the ruling party in tunisia, and the brotherhood in egypt.

you want to argue that violent extremism represents all muslims. to be sure, liberal muslim voices have been stifled by circumstances: the threats from the extremists, and the islamophobia on the other that would make intra-muslim critique appear to be traitrous. but the violent extremists are a minority, even a small minority. examples could be drawn from the muslim communities in europe, where the small minority of extremists has given a bad name to all and fed into the rightwing islamophobes.

best

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 7:00 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

Ken,

What aspects of my writing give credence to your view that I see all Muslims as sharing those inhuman ideologies?

You quoted me as referencing "groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions...from ...Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS.."

How does that quote imply or state I'm referring to all Muslims?

I stated the value of the Islamic extremists persuading other Muslims of the value of their extremist vision.

Does that not suggest a recognition that violent extremism is not shared by all Muslims?

In the light of these questions about my writing, what do you think justifies your describing my views as an attack on Islam?

Perhaps you were referencing my description of the Islamic world generally as not having moved beyond particular limitations.

The more liberal Muslims certainly exist but what is the dominant force in Islam generally?

That does not suggest that all Muslims are violent extremists. The violent extremists represent a heightening  of tendecies already present in Islamic history and thought, tendencies some Muslims choose not to identify with, but which some insist on identifying with.

Muhammed was a warrior and empire builder, a person described as forcing people to accept Islam or face the consequences.

Today's Islamic groups are following the same vision while some other Muslims choose not to live that way.

What is the level of critical interrogation the Koran and Islamic law have sustained at the hands of Muslims?

How free has Koranic commentary been?

Why is Sharia law still represented by such short sighted inhumanities as cutting off people's hands for theft or stoning them to death for adultery?

Those are clearly the dictates of a less sophistcated age, in which understanding of human nature was less complex.

To what degree has Sharia law undergone reform?

My argument is that Islam as a whole seems stuck in relatively uncritical approaches to it's spirituality, an orientation sustained by the muderous tendencies of those Muslims, terrorists and average citizens, who make themselves killer enforcers of Islamic purity  as well as the more extreme ones who organise themselves to force others through sustained fear of death through their terror to submit to their rigid forms of Islam.

In the midst of this crisis, how loud are the voices of Muslims condemning the inhumanities of their extremist brethren or in calling for reform within their religion?

I'm making statements as well as asking questions.

Thanks

Toyin

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, 10:00 Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

a last point on toyin adepoju's attack on islam.

toyin, you seem to be saying that all muslims share the same beliefs with regard to modernity, to western thought, to the sciences, to progress, etc.

you wrote: "The groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions are uniformly  savages, massacerers of innocents, throwbacks to the more barbaric periods of human existence when power is won by force rather than by persuasion, people unable to convince others of the quality of their vision and persuade people to give the Islamic devotees a chance to lead them but insist on forcing compliance through fear, making people fear for their lives by killing those who don't see things their way, from Africa to the Middle East to Asia, Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS, they are all the same-"accept us or die."

i remember when the ALA conference was held in alexandria, on the eve of the war in iraq. our speaker, who had to replace edward said who was ill with the cancer that took his life, was an academic in egypt. he said, if you (americans) invade and impose a regime on iraq, you will only lend credence to the fundamentalists who claim that westernization and modernization are inimical to islam. you will make it impossible for us, who are liberal minded muslims, to speak to the people with credibility.

the muslims you are describing, toyin, represent a piece of islam, just as i would say trump represents a group of americans. in both cases, the real victims of these militant fundamentalist types are the less dogmatic, more progressive, more liberal, more open minded people. often, the muslim militants' real target is other muslims. consider the sahel, for instance, or even afghanistan. the target of trump's hatred is liberals (in the american sense), and he uses hatred of others to fuel the flames. the islamic fundamentalists similarly use xenophobia, hatred of others, of "non-believers") as reason to attack those liberal or modernist muslims.

who is in the majority, in the muslim world? by far the non-fundamentalists. that should be obvious in nigeria, where boko harem hardly represents the majority, even in the north. where their targets are often muslim people, who don't succomb to their views. the extreme views you describe do not fit the vast majority of people in almost any muslim country i know, unless they are at war, like yemen. it doesn't describe any country in north africa, or even in the middle east. i would argue it doesn't describe iran, even. itsleadership is revolutionary guards, its people are not.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

---

From: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 10:46 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

i agree with cornelius onhis points, except that pakistanis pretty hard on those who do not hoe a pretty narrow religious, muslim line. if you dare depart from basic muslim beliefs, in a narrow fundamentalist sense, you risk being punished or killed. remember malala.

i don't think that is enough to explain a whole society. pakistan is no doubt rich in a number of wonderful ways, from the arts to culture, and probably learning. but they are too rigid when it comes to offering critiques of religion. remember malala.

cross the border into india, and the same story, reversed. if you are muslim and wish to marry a hindu person, you will be punished and forbidden from doing so.

they are nuts. and the people who wish to live by their hearts and souls instead of dogmatic faith pay the price.

remember malala,

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

---

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:00 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju the alchemist,

I suppose that it's alright for you to be either sitting in the NEPA darkness over there in Lagos, contemplating the cosmos, thinking about Newton, trying to find your computer keyboard by candlelight or alternately luxuriating somewhere outside your study, washed by some moonlight, contemplating moving covertly or not so covertly on some big booty, in the darkness of night or blessed by moonlight – not war booty, but big, beautiful booty...

Seriously, if not, and reserving big booty for later, you could start here with this piece by Pound for your special contemplation as it covers what Professor Harrow has been getting across to us or at least to me in this thread - so far.

Today, Ashura, the 10th of Muharram is the saddest day in the Islamic calendar. You may well imagine how it is being observed in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, all thoughts on the significance of Imam Hussain's sacrifice – as pivotal Islamic idealism and chivalry, and in the eternal battle between good and evil. an exemplary lesson on the sacrifice that's sometimes necessary when standing up to tyranny.

War is hell. Remember the Iran - Iraq War …

Who can predict what the Middle East will look like in 2041?

I guess if you had for some reason or other been in Afghanistan a few days ago when the Taliban took over and declared, not martial law but Sharia Law you would have been one of those ones scrabbling for a place in one of the big bomber planes hoping to get airlifted the hell out of Kabul - and ditto you would also be one of the ones scrambling to be airlifted to the United States should the Nigerian Taliban eventually sweep across the country and miraculously set up a new government in Abuja.

I'd just like to partly clarify one thing that needs clarification and leave it to Ken to explain what he meant by "pakistan is the key to afghanistan"

Just see what you get when you Google " Pakistan is the key to Afghanistan "

The Taliban were mostly educated in Pakistani Schools, by which token Pakistan is the ideological headquarters of the Taliban. Pakistan itself cannot be accused of any of the excesses of the earlier Taliban rule in Afghanistan and therefore let us hope, and pray that Pakistan will exercise a restraining hand on their Taliban students now in power in Afghanistan....

Let us pray as you continue your philosophical ruminations about the meaning of history and thank your lucky stars that you are not in Kandahar just now...

On Wednesday, 18 August 2021 at 16:50:11 UTC+2 ovdepoju wrote:

Edited

I understand the Taliban says women will now be allowed to work and to go to school.

I also understand they are guaranteeing press freedom within limits defined by the aviodance of character assassination.

From within my admittedly little informed mind, I then asked, if they are going to adhere to those two pillars of liberal society, if I'm using the right term, then how are they different from the Western civilization I understand they see themselves as an alternative to?

Instead of this perpetual fighting to force yourselves on people, why not present your beautiful visions for social development and persuade people to vote for you?

People are struck by the 

Taliban's resilience, but resilience to what greater good of the Afghan people?

The guns they are using, the communications systems they employ, the vehicles they drive, are all products of Western ingenuity, enabled by hard won changes in Western society that enabled those innovations.

People paid with their lives and their liberty for the freedom to think and create that took Western societies from the religion encased world of the Middle Ages to its current scienitific and technological dominance and general position in the global knowledge space as well as the social and economic freedoms and empowerments that makes the West the most advanced in all indices of human development, in spite of their inadequacies.

None of the structures that define modernity in a global sense is the outcome of non-Western societies talk less Islamic cultures.

True, Africa and particularly Asia and the Arab and Persian worlds have played strategic roles in the foundations of science and it's relationship to technology, as well as developing sophisticated learning systems and complex writing well before 

Europe but it was in Europe  that these global possibilities, in harmony with Europe's own native achievements,  achieved the highest synthesis humanity has reached so far, achievements taken further  by Europe's North American cultural satellites, particularly the US.

Human history is best understood as the development of a single group of people, demonstrating qualities that define humanity as different from other species on Earth, qualities mediated by diverse cultures, yet fundamentally the same.

All peoples have religion. How does it contribute to quality of life, is the question.

I'm not impressed by claims of superrority of value over Western societies  as defined by secularism and liberal democratice culture as these claims of superiority may be advanced by advocates of Islam.

The groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions are uniformly  savages, massacerers of innocents, throwbacks to the more barbaric periods of human existence when power is won by force rather than by persuasion, people unable to convince others of the quality of their vision and persuade people to give the Islamic devotees a chance to lead them but insist on forcing compliance through fear, making people fear for their lives by killing those who don't see things their way, from Africa to the Middle East to Asia, Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS, they are all the same-"accept us or die."

Most human beings don't want to live like that. It enhances people's sense of worth if they are allowed to decide who leads them. It strenthens the sense of life's value and encourages cooperation towards the common goals that unite a community.

The West first developed this vision of common decision making about community leadership to it's current levels.

 It was also in the West that, to the best of my knowledge, women were first allowed to vote and generally participate in running public society at the scale of participation seen today, an achievement won largely by generations of self sacrificing struggle by Western women, struggle even unto the sacrifice of their lives.

Are visions of Islamic society offering something better than this model of choosing one's leaders through opportunities open to all citizens?

There is much talk in Islam of divine revelation, of commandments from God about how human beings should live, ideas mediated by Muhammed, the founder of Islam and presented in the Koran and collections of Muhammed's sayings.

Claims of divine revelation and guidance are widespread across the world.

The Yoruba origin Ifa system of knowledge claims the world began at Ife, and have their own scriptures, ese ifa, representing wisdom mediated by divine sources. 

Judaism references the Garden of Eden as the beginning of humanity and the Talmud, among other scriptures, their own compilations of divine wisdom, which, in turn, provides the foundations of the Christian Bible, another book described by it's devotees as divinely inspired.

I'm not aware of any foundational religious texts, except perhaps the ese ifa,  more extensive than those of the Hindus, from the Rig Veda to the Mahabarata, the Ramayana and the Upanishads. 

Most, perhaps all societies have claims of divine wisdom and texts, oral or written, believed as embodying this wisdom.

The question is-how do these beliefs advance the quality of human life?

Is human life improved by the Islamic law policy of cutting off the hands of thieves? Are the thieves ' life circumstances thereby improved, making them less likely to steal?  

In being dettered from stealing by losing a hand, are they thereby more productive members of society or are they now handicapped and less likely to benefit society?

In stoning to death two married people who commit adultery, as I am informed is enjoined by Islamic law, are the reasons for that adultery thereby addressed, the psychological, interpersonal and physical issues and drives that inspired the act in the first place thereby examined and acted upon?

Does that stoning to death assist any soul searching on the part of all parties involved, leading to better understanding of questions of compatibility, mutual responsibility and individual needs?

I see Muslims can be particularly sensitive to their beliefs being addressed in ways different from their approval, leading in numerous cases to killing others for those views the Muslims find abhorrent.

Such Muslims thereby persist in attitudes it's sister religion Christianity has moved on from.

But really, what are religious beliefs if not ideas no one can prove, no one can validate, referring to realities beyond the reach of most people, an alternate universe claimed by believers to be the source of reality?

If God exists, how does killing or brutalising people who don't believe in him going to improve his own existence?

All the ideas depicting centring of human well being I have described above are represented by Western liberal culture and represent the most advanced understanding of human possibility yet reached, in my view.

Islam is centred on the prophethood of Muhammed, described as the last prophet.

What are we to say of the head of the US based religious group ECKANKAR, described by the group as the only direct representative of the Creator of the universe, a position established by the group's founder Paul Twitchell, a US citizen who made this claim for himself and the others following in leadership of the school. Their beautiful books written by Twitchell, described as divinely inspired, advance this view.

It's great to have a faith, but it's only one of many, and no more necessarily valid than all the others.

The question is- how does that faith improve human lives?

Can you convince others to share your faith through the quality of your own life and it's impact on other's lives?

What is the response to this question by  the Taliban, Boko Haram, ISIS and other Islamic groups trying to force others to live by their faith?

Until such questions are taken seriously in a sustained manner accross generations in world societies, the West, which has long built itself significantly on such questions will remain the cultural point or gravitation for most people, regardless of the system of government in their own countries.

Thanks

Toyin

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