Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

so, my first point would be that the word "religion" is being too loosely to be useful here.

if it is the belief that there is something besides the immediately material realm we inhabit, we can say, ok, that seems easy enough, and so what.

or we could say, as i would want to say after reading a plethora of recent physics books, that there is no adequate vocabulary to distinguish the material realm in any way that makes sense. it is perfectly reasonable for an einstein to admire the beauty of the workings of the universe, that he describes in the equations that define relativity, special and general. if he, or you, want to call that entity spiritual or divine, what is lost? and nothing particularly is gained, except some comfort. i read about the attempts to understand and describe the basic building blocks of the universe, and the forces. we get down to the tinest elements, which might be strings so small that nothing smaller in the universe is possible. and they vibrate. they for combinations; those in turn move and interact so as to produce forces, waves, particles, etc.

their structures might have come about w the big bang. no one knows. their forces seem to collapse in black holes. their existence can be tracked over time. all this is based on observations, and then equations to describe what was observed.

i will say truthfully i cannot imagine such an extraordinary set of discoveries, such incredibly brilliant work that resulted in contemporary physics--relativity, quantum--placed in relation to the theologies of historical religions. it makes no sense to me, so i believe that the religious beliefs should be compartmentalized into some other location where explanations for existence are not at all taken seriously.

we want to live with each other in a decent world. we want to have ethical behavior the foundation for our relations with others. we want a moral code to define our behavior. if some people prefer to derive these codes from sacred texts, sacred stories in which they want to believe, that seems fine to me.

but in the end, the authority of religions, all religions, should stop there. let people hear the stories, believe what they want, and accept the moral lessons to frame their lives. but it is inconceivable nowadays to imagine that this side to belief has anything to do with the physical sciences, the world we inhabit.

when humans tried to understand the world, and some times framed their beliefs in the form of  beings and their histories, why call that religion? why prioritize any of those beliefs over any others, the way missionaries do?

what distinguishes religious belief from scientific knowledge? why suspend our rational thinking process, our abilities to interpret either texts or observations, in the name of religion or science? the real challenge for us is to frame our understandings and beliefs not as working in opposition to each other, but as supporting the sense we can make of the world. those who dismiss science have no excuse for excluding a branch of knowledge that should only help frame their beliefs into sensible forms. that does not mean being christian or jewish or muslim or a believer in a traditional religion; it means working out a universe with values that are decent and not dogmatic.

 i'd recommend reading carlo rovelli's Reality Is Not WHat It Seems, to get this story on physic's development (and what impeded it over time).

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

---

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 6:55 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>; usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

Religion inspired modern western science yet is criticised by such science by a process of ratiocination and displacement ( open ended religions like Ifá, and to some extent Christianity do this well, but Islam lags behind in this functionality, perpetually seeing religion inscribed on an immutable tablet of stone- hence the atavistic Sharia law.)

What is called religion over the ages involves a critical look at the universe by a community of specialised knowers who shroud their discoveries from the commonality by the concept of God(s) to exert control on the commonality of human societies.

That is why religion is the first political party invented by humankind.

OAA

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>

Date: 18/08/2021 23:35 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

Thanks, Ken.

I'm trying to understand the refinements you think I should make.

Money is used to fund what people value.

The US and USSR founded technological research and reaped the rewards.

But underlying all contemporary science are foundations laid in Europe between the 17th to the 20th centuries, which, in turn built on previous European and non-European  advancements.

All Islamic societies are not identical. 

What, however, is the most prominent face of Islam since the closing years of the 20th century?

As for China, I'm not able to understand how such a tightly controlled system could  achieve maximum productivity.

When last did any fundamentally new development in science and technology, as different from using Western  inventions, emerge from China?

If any such has emerged, what is the volume and momentum of such achievements?

On science and religion, Newton and Kepler, two foundational thinkers in scientific cosmology, might not agree with you on a disconnection between the practice of science and religious faith.

Newton's conclusion to his Principia is classic in celebrating the inspiration of religious belief, depicting religious cosmology in relation to scientific cosmology, describing a relationship between faith and reason in terms of how much human beings can know and describing the techniques used by a scientist in developing knowledge of the physical universe to the scope available to humanity.

Immanuel Kant, philosopher and scientist, explores the scope of human reason in relation to faith as he celebrates the glory of the material universe in terms evoking spiritual identity.

Kepler correlates the creativity of the human mind with that of divine creativity.

Aristotle, father of Western science, is described by Jonathan Lear in Aristotle: The Desire to Understand, as seeking a synthesis of knowledge in divine mind, if I recall correctly. 

Hindu yantra theory is a description of the underlying mathematical structures of the cosmos in terms of both exquisite mathematics, as in the Sri Yantra, and ideas of divine identity.

It's possible for a scientist to be deeply inspired by religion.

Religion can inspire a critical quest for knowledge.  It can also obstruct it.

Thanks

Toyin

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 22:15 Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

toyin, it is the middle of my working time, so i shouldn't take time off to respond. i will try to do justice to your thoughts later, though i suspect i am in agreement to a large extent.

i read rovelli's account of the development of physics, have you? it's really brilliant. the christian period after rome really impeded scientific thought till gallileo. i have nothing to object to in this, that is, in charging religion, in certain periods of history, in impeding other forms of understanding. the christian impediments were incredible, not least because, like trump supporters today, dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot.

anyway, i think you need to refine your arguments somewhat. what happened after world war one, in the developments of science, specifically physics and math? the centers were in germany, and secondarily in britain and  france and a bit here and there elsewhere. with the rise of hitler and ww2, it all ended for germany, and the u.s. and ussr took the best brains, or the best brains migrated. some of those best brains were already in russia, and in the u.s. but it took scientific centers and money to push the work of science forward. there are outposts in places like waterloo in canada, but it really was the money and ultimately prestige of einsteen oppenheimer and all those russian geniuses that drew the smartest students to princeton and then cal tech mit you name it. without tons more money the labs wouldn't have been possible, and the sciences followed not just the environment as you put it, but the investments that were necessary.

that's now shifting with the money. china has investments and the science is shifting. the europeans maybe have some more to invest. but unless you put that into the equation we are too simplistic in simply assignment religion the role of impediment.

and of course, religion in afghanistan has nothing to do with religion in morocco say, where scientific institutes function perfectly well, where advancements are possible now. i don't see jews who embrace science being tied to the orthodox idiocies of the fundamentalists, and many muslim kids are also embracing science. you can't have boko harem unless there is boko to complain about, and between modern scientific knowledge and religious fervor it is clear which will win.

great scientific minds have no problem with a sense of some divine aspect to the universe: they just don't waste much time on it, or any time. it's like a beautiful work of art, an aesthetic that lifts you, but has nothing to do with the equations that make the science work. even the afghanis will have to yield to that imperative, as i suspect is happening now in iran and saudi arabia. after all, who is building the nuclear labs? not the imams.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

---

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 3:42 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

Ken,

I stated that all peoples have contributed to the development of science and technology but these developments have been synthesied by Europe and taken to heights no other people have achieved.

It's a long road from Chinese invention of rocketry to the German development of the V2 to the US space programs and Elon Musk's company being the first private company to take a payload into space.

Could Musk, Branson and Bezos achieve what they are doing now in space exploration if they were in Asia, South America, Africa or the Arab worlds?

If not,  why?

Is Elon Musk's decision to move from South Africa to the US justified, in his dream that the US is where things happen for an aspiring engineer such as himself?

Musk  was s student at Stanford, same as the founders of Google and Yahoo. The synergy between Stanford and Silicon Valley is well known, leading to various countries trying to replicate that model, as represented, for example, by Trinity College, Cambridge setting up Cambridge Science Park.

Environment, enablement and ability must come together to maximise human possibility. Those efforts at social engineering in the name of scientific and technological creativity are based on that understanding.

How can you develop scientific ingenuity if your focus is on enforcing religious dictates?

Netwon's achievement in physics, the basis of the modern scientific world view, was gained at the cost of concealing the scope of his religious orientation.

Galileo, one of those whose work Newton built upon, was placed under house arrest for daring to advance the Copernican view that the Earth revolves around the sun, all bcs the Church saw the idea as anti Christianity.

The Muslim world achieved well before the  West the the levels of polymathic creativity the West later celebrated in the Renaissance but while the West took this culture forward into what we now call multidisciplinarity, the Islamic world has not sustained a similar momentum.

Well before Leonardo da Vinci and other Western polymaths, we had Muslims like Ibn Arabi, great medical researcher, great philosopher and more.

Why is the Islamic world no longer a leader in the world of knowledge?

Why is the West the current centre?

Is it not possible that the Islamic world could not sustain that momentum beceauase religious fundamentalism became too constricting?

The medeival Western Church  was almost, if not as repressive as the Islamic extremists, but through such struggles as the Reformation, the West moved on.

A good no of Islamic socities have not moved on. The extremist Muslims are insisting that moving on is anti-Islam.

Religion is based on faith, not knowledge.

You cannot run human socities successfully on faith beyond a particular point.

The human being is an embodied creature for whom the senses and the intellect, complemented by imagination, are their primary cognitive faculties.

Without developing systems of knowledge that people can readily employ using these faculties and base their socities on them, the society is in trouble.

Religion is helpful as inspiration but no more.

When people start insisting on running their society based on the revelations, described as coming from God, that is the seed of backwardness.

God, whose existence is unconfirmed and unverifiable. Revelations whose source is untraceable. 

Any society that bases itself on these questionable even if inspiring orientations is likely to be faced with a crisis of identity because the Western modernity they often rely on to live in the modern world was enabled by moving beyond such inadequacies.

It's not hard to trace the emergence of what defines today's world from that of 4 centuries ago.

It's knowledge and social organisation.

The one group of people who have moved farthest from their beginnings are Europe and it's cultural satellites in North America.

The Saudis are still monarchical and religiously governed. Europe left that behind centuries ago. Iran is operating a largely religious system which it mixes with the inescapable Western component. I'm not aware they are known to have any new knowledge to share with the world although I admire their nuclearisation program as an expression of self definition in a world of mutual deterrent.

The Islamic extremists have jettisoned the philosophical struggles in the Islamic world between the sacred and the secular, faith and intellect, represented by such figures as the philosophic conflict between Avicenna and Al Ghazali and the insights of an Ibn Arabi who sought to unify all faiths within his person as a Muslim and have instead gravitated to the crudest, most inhuman possibilities of Islam.

Elements of the inhuman fanaticism especially developed by the Abrahamic religions, being religions with roots in self execeptionalism and the denial of the legitimacy of others' views, a stance Christianity has moved furthest from, may be seen as demonstrated by the influence of the religious right in Israel and perhaps in the savagery of Israel towards the Palestinians, but there is a world of difference between such Jews covering up images of women and insisting women must be covered from head to toe in something that impedes movement and communication, which I understand had been Taliban policy.

I'm shocked a scholar such as yourself is equating the Twitter ban of Trump with Taliban censorship.

You are working too hard at the cultural equality perspective, a non-factual position not even shared by Islamic extremists whom you are trying to relativise and who are driven by a warped sense of their superiority of values.

All cultural values are not equal.

Cultural values that required the killing of twins, as was once done in a part of Nigeria, that legitimised human sacrifice, as  described as once done by the then highly publicly respected Ogboni in Nigeria, of burying people with a dead monarch as described as  was once done by the Benin and Yoruba of Nigeria are barbaric cultural values because the sigficance of human life has never varied across time, it only grows in appreciation.

What is the Taliban censoring?

Are they censoring abuses to human rights, unjustified attacks on people, racist comments, and other forms of behaviour that fall below the generally understood standard of human well being and dignity?

Are they censoring anything against their efforts to complel others to live by their faith defined by constricting human development?

Why was Trump sanctioned?

Was he sanctioned bcs the social media networks were trying to prevent him from revealing the conspiracy that saw him losing the last elections?

Were they trying to prevent him from enlightening the world as to why even in states with Republican govts he lost decisively in spite of his efforts to "correct" the democratic process in the spirit of regiimes elsewhere where the ruler's will is paramount?

Were the social networks being sensitive to the danger of their networks being used by a fanatical demagogue to further inspire his supporters as he was able to do in mobilising them  in commiting the desecration of their own democracy in the attack on Capitol Hill after the armed forces had insisted that it was loyal to the nation not to any individual, indirectly referencing the megalomaniac ex- President?

Let's be careful of the dark side of liberal culture, where all values are equal, all actions are relative.

The violent Muslims are largely primitives, confused about the future of Islam in a world which has left them behind but which they are trying to pull back.

Thanks

Toyin 

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 18:07 Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

a small footnote. i read an article this morning from the israeli newspaper, ha-aretz, describing how women's images are blacked out on public billboards or images. not by muslims, my friend, but orthodox jews in israel. no doubt brooklyn would inspire similar thoughts.

is there anyplace on earth where some equivalent is not blacked out? how about, for instance, trump's messages on facebook? not that i disagree with barring anything from that maniac; but just to remark that the taliban's censorship has its equivalents in all societies, even if it takes different forms.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

---

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 9:48 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yorubaaffairs@googlegroups.com>; Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

I understand the Taliban says women will now be allowed to work and to go to school.

I also understand they are guaranteeing press freedom within limits defined by the aviodance of character assassination.

From within my admittedly little informed mind, I then asked, if they are going to adhere to those two pillars of liberal society, if I'm using the right term, then how are they different from the Western civilization I understand they see themselves as an alternative to?

Instead of this perpetual fighting to force yourselves on people, why not present your beautiful visions for social development and persuade people to vote for you?

People are struck by the 

Taliban's resilience, but resilience to what greater good of the Afghan people?

The guns they are using, the communications systems they employ, the vehicles they drive, are all products of Western ingenuity, enabled by hard won changes in Western society that enabled those innovations.

People paid with their lives and their liberty for the freedom to think and create that took Western societies from the religion encased world of the Middle Ages to its current scienitific and technological dominance and general position in the global knowledge space as well as the social and economic freedoms and empowerments that makes the West the most advanced in all indices of human development, in spite of their inadequacies.

None of the structures that define modernity in a global sense is the outcome of non-Western societies talk less Islamic cultures.

True, Africa and particularly Asia and the Arab and Persian worlds have played strategic roles in the foundations of science and it's relationship to technology, as well as developing sophisticated learning systems and complex writing well before 

Europe but it was in Europe  that these global possibilities, in harmony with Europe's own native achievements,  achieved the highest synthesis humanity has reached so far, achievements taken further  by Europe's North American cultural satellites, particularly the US.

Human history is best understood as the development of a single group of people, demonstrating qualities that define humanity as different from other species on Earth, qualities mediated by diverse cultures, yet fundamentally the same.

All peoples have religion. How does it contribute to quality of life, is the question.

I'm not impressed by claims of superrority of value over Western societies  as defined by secularism and liberal democratice culture as these claims of superiority may be advanced by advocates of Islam.

The groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions are uniformly  savages, massacerers of innocents, throwbacks to the more barbaric periods of human existence when power is won by force rather than by persuasion, people unable to convince others of the quality of their vision and persuade people to give the Islamic devotees a chance to lead them but insist on forcing compliance through fear, making people fear for their lives by killing those who don't see things their way, from Africa to the Middle East to Asia, Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS, they are all the same-"accept us or die."

Most human beings don't want to live like that. It enhances people's sense of worth if they are allowed to decide who leads them. It strenthens the sense of life's value and encourages cooperation towards the common goals that unite a community.

The West first developed this vision of common decision making about community leadership to it's current levels.

 It was also in the West that, to the best of my knowledge, women were first allowed to vote and generally participate in running public society at the scale of participation seen today, an achievement won largely by generations of self sacrificing struggle by Western women, struggle even unto the sacrifice of their lives.

Are visions of Islamic society offering something better than this model of choosing one's leaders through opportunities open to all citizens?

There is much talk in Islam of divine revelation, of commandments from God about how human beings should live, ideas mediated by Muhammed, the founder of Islam and presented in the Koran and collections of Muhammed's sayings.

Claims of divine revelation and guidance are widespread across the world.

The Yoruba origin Ifa system of knowledge claims the world began at Ife, and have their own scriptures, ese ifa, representing wisdom mediated by divine sources. 

Judaism references the Garden of Eden as the beginning of humanity and the Talmud, among other scriptures, their own compilations of divine wisdom, which, in turn, provides the foundations of the Christian Bible, another book described by it's devotees as divinely inspired.

I'm not aware of any foundational religious texts, except perhaps the ese ifa,  more extensive than those of the Hindus, from the Rig Veda to the Mahabarata, the Ramayana and the Upanishads. 

Most, perhaps all societies have claims of divine wisdom and texts, oral or written, believed as embodying this wisdom.

The question is-how do these beliefs advance the quality of human life?

Is human life improved by the Islamic law policy of cutting off the hands of thieves? Are the thieves ' life circumstances thereby improved, making them less likely to steal?  

In being dettered from stealing by losing a hand, are they thereby more productive members of society or are they now handicapped and less likely to benefit society?

In stoning to death two married people who commit adultery, as I am informed is enjoined by Islamic law, are the reasons for that adultery thereby addressed, the paychological, interpersonal and physical issues and drives that inspired the act in the first place thereby examined and acted upon?

Does that stoning to death assist any soul searching on the part of all parties involved, leading to better understanding of questions of compatibility, mutual responsibility and individual needs?

I see Muslims can be particularly sensitive to their beliefs being addressed in ways different from their approval, leading in numerous cases to killing others for those views the Muslims find abhorrent.

Such Muslims thereby persist in attitudes it's sister religion Christianity has moved on from.

But really, what are religious beliefs if not ideas no one can prove, no one can validate, referring to realities beyond the reach of most people, an alternate universe claimed by believers to be the source of reality?

If God exists, how does killing or brutalising people who don't believe in him going to improve his own existence?

All the ideas depicting centring of human well being I have described above are represented by Western liberal culture and represent the most advanced understanding of human possibility yet reached, in my view.

Islam is centred on the prophethood of Muhammed, described as the last prophet.

What are we to say of the head of the US based religious group ECKANKAR, described by the group as the only direct representative of the Creator of the universe, a position established by the group's founder Paul Twitchell, a US citizen who made this claim for himself and the others following in leadership of the school. Their beautiful books written by Twitchell, described as divinely inspired, advance this view.

It's great to have a faith, but it's only one of many, and no more necessarily valid than all the others.

The question is- how does that faith improve human lives?

Can you convince others to share your faith through the quality of your own life and it's impact on other's lives?

What is the response to this question by  the Taliban, Boko Haram, ISIS and other Islamic groups trying to force others to live by their faith?

Until such questions are taken seriously in a sustained manner accross generations in world societies, the West, which has long built itself significantly on such questions will remain the cultural point or gravitation for most people, regardless of the system of government in their own countries.

Thanks

Toyin

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