gloria,
it feels a little like apples and oranges. hmm, or some other metaphor might be better, since apples and oranges are both good.
there was not very much good one could say about colonial expropriation of african wealth, forced labor, etc. maybe by the 1950s it had improved. but i know the horror stories much more than any positive development stories,
but that was then. i';d be more interested in asking about the post-independent period, and whether by the time of neo-colonialism, and then later, as the global economy takes hold, how the capitalist system worked, and how it compared with the chinese entry.
my impression is that one of the hot topics of contemporary african studies is china, is it good or bad. my impression is that the decision is still out. i hear bits and pieces; some ugly things about chinese arrogance; some grousing about how extensive the chinese projects are now, everywhere. i don't really know for sure that i could say that it works to african states' benefit or not. if you feel comfortable about pronouncing on it, i'd be interested in hearing more.
the only place i know for sure it is bad is the giant trawlers that scoop up the fish off the coast. but the chinese are merely doing what europeans and others are doing there too.
as for western trade, i've learned the french have not faded into the EU, still maintain extensive trade and production, including agricultural crops. are their deals better or worse than those of the chinese? i don't know. how do the chinese make their deals? i don't know.
of course we all know about SAP, but those days are largely over.
is there much venality in the chinese insertion in the continent?
but i'd like to learn, and am willing to withhold judgment until people who know the situation better than i can address it.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 9:46 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 9:46 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran
Ken,
You are right to a point.There is indication of gold theft by a Chinese mafia group in the Congo and individual pilfering. But my reference was to state directed colonial occupation and compulsory evacuation of resources.
China did not send in gunboats and weaponry to create colonies from which they evacuated vegetable oils,
and minerals at their will, under the protection of the military, as done by the British, French, Italians, Germans,Spaniards, Belgians, Danes (?)and Portuguese. In the case of the Congo, Kabila and his supporters made a deal with the Chinese for infrastructure for minerals.I believe this was from a free negotiation platform. They had the choice of
switching over to the Brits or French etc and rejecting the deal, but did not. During the colonial era there was no option.
Gloria Emeagwali
Prof of History/ African Studies
On Aug 26, 2021, at 16:51, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
--not sure i agree about china not stealing minerals, given conditions under which minerals are being extracted and sold in many parts of the continent., burundi is now renegotiating, and e congo is pure theft all around. but i agree w gloria's overall assessment. i don't know that i agree that the future conditions under china or russia or any of the future partners would be better than the west. i'd like to hear someone expert in afghan to explain it. i did read the taliban made much of their money w opium; i wonder what will happen with that.ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:11 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran--Pakistan is quite pleased and so are China and Russia. Afghanistan has a trillion dollar worth of deposits in lithium for the battery hungry world, and I foresee China moving in to exploit it. They don't steal minerals as the West did during colonial rule.They pay for them. China may also want friendly relations with the Taliban to calm down its Chinese Muslim population-hoping that they are not inspired by the Taliban success.
I predict that the US itself may soon try to make the Taliban a new friend given that the two have a deadly enemy in Isil-K. I notice that the Europeans more than doubled the amount of aid to the Taliban government in a bid to rival the US?
So in the light of all this Iran wouldbe stupid to stay aloof.
Just heard there was a third blast inKabul.
Gloria Emeagwali
On Aug 26, 2021, at 10:42, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
--turns out paul zeleza was right, according to this piece i just saw in Le Monde the iranian govt has backed away from its former criticisms, softened its tone, met with taliban leaders. they are seeing in the retreat of the americans an occasion for them to find rapprochement with afghanistan. i wonder how relations with pakistan will follow.ken
--
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
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