 | More than a billion Muslims inhabit this planet, and they inhabit geographic, linguistic and cultural spaces that are enormously diverse. As a result, their beliefs on issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people cannot be easily summarized. www.hrc.org |
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
I do not believe that any so-called "progressive Muslims" can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg's Footnote to Howl as one of their main scriptures.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what's written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.
i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.
i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.
my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative ReadingStill on the matter of censorship - let's move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama's recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect " La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal's imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….
LGBT composers in classical music history
There's also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in " tread softly because you tread on my dreams" that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
"Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink."
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?"
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them."
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches and some synagogues. For me, it's difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King, wouldn't dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to "legalise" LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That "Pride Sabbath" was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what's going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, " I die daily". Jesus on the other hand has already said " Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!"
Senegal: Mbalax 2019
--On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
Dear Kenneth,
I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much "free-er" society - and that the women are a lot " free-er", perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.
But, that's very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis or the Mourides ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama's 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don't exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba and Cheikh Anta Diop country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?
I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?
Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)
The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-Violence
BEST OF MBALAX 2020
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear corneliusyes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative ReadingDear Kenneth,
It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps
You must have seen them many times in Senegal.
Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie's is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:
"And if my thought-dreams could be seen.
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"
Perhaps, there's the same confusion about Jesus walking on water as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.
Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.
Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis.
Another siddhi is levitation. There are many different siddhis. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn't? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.
Preacherman also says that " Faith can move mountains" ( mountains of problems)
" And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water" ( Leonard Cohen)
With e.g. "Jesus Christ Superstar " in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don't ever let them come back here.
Re - your footnote:
How does
Yambo Ouologuem : Bound to Violence
compare with
Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons
--On Monday, 22 August 2022 at 19:35:32 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius, with respect, rushdie doesn't place the wives of mohamed in a brothel, his character imagines this.why the distinction? on the one hand, you are right to say, there's no difference: he, the author, made up this vision and placed it in the imaginary of his character, whom he also created.on the other hand, the imaginary is a mediated one, not something presented as mimesis or a direction reflection of a reality.
i have read many many books where the mediations of reality present us with images of degradation and dissolution. try Last Exit to Brooklyn, or the "trash" cinemas of brazil or many others.
i don't want some good hearted religious authority to tell us what to deploy in our creations--be they art with elephant dung or anything else. it takes a giuliani to try to shut down the brookllyn museum. perhaps he might wind up burning dante's inferno with the elephant dung? why not? he is comfortable with a world ruled by maniacal power, which he tried to deploy to overthrow the elections. is he to be our guide though the "selva selvaggiaa"?ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 11:35 AMSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative ReadingDear Sir and dear fellow Muslim sympathiser,
As the saying goes, let us be prepared to go as he or she who goes furthest in this matter.
This is no secondary matter. It's a matter of common decency, not hypocrisy and double standards. We know the importance of the mother in Islam.
The Quran states "The wives of the Prophet are like your mothers" ( - i-e deserving of your respect)
With this understanding, who in his right mind and in good conscience should not react when Rushdie in his "The Satanic Verses", dives into the lowest immoral pit by actually placing the wives of the Prophet of Islam, sallallahu alaihi wa salaam in a whorehouse/ brothel? ????
In 1989, In "How Salman Rushdie Fooled the West", Ahmed Deedat takes up other items of rudeness liberally scattered throughout magnum opus, " The Satanic Verses"
--On Monday, 22 August 2022 at 12:45:43 UTC+2 drsikir...@gmail.com wrote:
Sir,Your question on the futility of arguing with a mad man summarises the difference between a learned person and an illiterate who considers himself an authority in any religion because he is able to speak Arabic or because he memorises Bible verses or Ifa corpus.Ordinarily, the Qur'an addresses this question as follows:"The likeness of those who were made to bear the Book but would not bear it, is as THE LIKENESS OF AN ASS CARRYING A LOAD OF BOOKS..."Qur'an 62 verse 6.In several other places, the Qur'an emphasises that it addresses the "Ulul Albaab" ( people of logical reasoning or understanding)hence, the Prophetic clarification in the Sahib that "Laa diina li maa laa aqla lahuu (There is no religion for whoever lacks the sense of reasoning).Islam has been so lucky that the Divinity and the universality of the Qur'an cannot be distorted nor interpolated.What happened therefore is that overzealots have exploited the secondary sources of the Shari'ah viz the Ijma' ( consensus of opinion of Muslim jurists) and the Qiyas (Analogical deductions) to proliferate various schools of thoughts that are opposed to orthodox interpretations.As it is happening in Christianity where many adherents see their pastors as infallible and God incarnate, it is worse in Islam.This is the major cause of the criminal manipulations of Islamic traditions in Nigeria among some Southern and most especially Northern extremist groups.The injunctions of Islam are very clear on all issues. The circumstances of such traditions are also clear. Owing however to particularistic tendencies of sectarian groups, crimes are committed and teachings are perverted. Some of the teachings of Islam that are perverted by overzealous include but not limited to apostasy, feminism, child upbringing, polygamy, divorce and inheritance etc.Unfortunately, many media houses are not charitable in the reportage of religious crimes across all religions and ethnic groups. Child and women rights' abuses, sexual crimes, deprivation of inheritance rights, class discrimination, labour exploitation and slave wages etc are all contemporary issues and recurring decimals in all religions in Nigeria.On despicable fact which is distorting the understanding of these issues is the ethnic and religious profiling of crimes and criminals.As it were, crime has no colouration, ethnic or religious. While terrorism is rampant in the North owing to our porous borders, ritual killings in the south has reached a level of a national emergency. Unfortunately, the fixation is politically on the North while the network of kidnappers and extra judicial killings in the south are under reported.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 11:24 AM Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
Compared with the Quran, there's no choice other than 100% agreement with what you say about Rushdie's extended phantasmagorical nonsense
Just a short question.
By the same yardstick, regarding Sacred Texts, what do we have to say about Dante's Divine Comedy?
Should a fatwa carrying or recommending the death penalty be passed on him, his publishers, distributors and readers, currently and posthumously?
In the modern world, what is supposed to be the fate of what's perceived as satirical, ireverential, blasphemous, anti-religious fiction, or poetry, music, drama, art, outside the jurisdiction of the thought-police and e.g. the Ayatollahs?
Must we always have to argue with a madman?
Perhaps, whilst you are at it Sir, you could take a little time out to answer the question WHAT MAKES ISLAM SO DIFFERENT
--On Wednesday, 17 August 2022 at 01:12:33 UTC+2 drsikir...@gmail.com wrote:
In the intellectual world, a writer is a literary artist who designs ideas with words and expressions. Most at times, the writer travels far into his world of imagination. He then requires a very sophisticated audience of the caliber of this global Forum to actually discern his message.In discerning the message, a critic could validate or invalidate the presented hypothesis.In the above context therefore, this write up is an attempt to compare the incomparable. The Qur'an is not just a Book of Worship. It is a compendium of Philosophy, Sociology, Physical and abstract Sciences and Jurisprudence. Rushdie's presentation is one of the most recent attempts of certain class of sceptics to disprove the Divinity of the Qur'an.Without being apologetic, as a scholar of Islamic Studies, there are intrinsic qualities that characterize the revelation, recording, compilation and the standardization of the Qur'an.For example, Surah Al Kahf, Chpt 18 of the Qur'an opens with an emphatic declaration as follows:"All praise belongs to Allah Who has sent down the Book to His servant, and has not placed therein any crookedness"The author of this comparison should have gone half a step further to read the opening of the 2nd chapter, Al Baqarah, which laid a solid foundation for the verse above. Verse 2 of that chapter says:" This is a perfect Book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for the righteous. "Pointed verses of these categories have motivated more serious minded scholars, such as William Muir in history to carry out intensive studies of the Quranic texts in order to bring out the human elements contained in it.Unfortunately, their studies ended up compelling most of them to admit the Divinity of the Qur'an. Kenneth Craig even went far in his " Qur'an - A Scripture for the Arabs?In Salman Rushdie's work, the objective was to discredit the Qur'an. The conception of the satanic verses was a satiric process. It was not intended as an equivalent literature hence the comparison has no basis ab initio.Rather than reading it in the context of blasphemy, the comparison is just an intellectual exercise aimed at soliciting study materials for further research. The satanic verses are just too vague, derisive and twisted. The Qur'an is absolutely incomparable as a work of Theosophy.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 8:11 PM Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
--Will this not pass for blasphemy?
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 2:04 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses
A Comparative Reading
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Comparative Cognitive Processes and Systems
"Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"
Two authors, two books. One, Muhammed, claims divine inspiration, another, Rushdie, claims inspiration perhaps from his own creative powers. Both books are described as being in opposition.
This an effort to slowly read both books and learn from them in a comparative manner.
1. The Koran.
Surah al Fatiha. The Opening.
In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds.
Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgement.
You we worship, Your aid we seek.
Show us the Straight Way.
The Path of those on whom you have bestowed your grace
not of those who have inspired your anger
those who have gone astray.
Composite rendering from translations by Saheeh International, Abdullah Yusuf Alli, Sayyid Abdul A la Mawdudi, as trans. by Zafar Ishaq Ansari, with some modifications by myself that do not change the content.
This opening needs to be listened to in powerful Koranic chanting to be adequately appreciated, even if one does not understand the language in which the chanting is uttered. Superb examples can be got online, with YouTube being a primary source.
The vocal rendering dramatizes with poignant force what it means to commit oneself to belief in a transcendent reality of all pervasive force, one way of describing the divine identity the opening salutes.
Travelling a long distance, parched with thirst, I came at last upon an oasis in the dry wilderness, a gleam of life in the deadly desert. Long prayer, month after month, sustained me in that cave, until the nourishing waters poured through. Voices in coming millennia will ask if I heard a divine voice or an imaginary one. The best I can do is testify.
So Muhammed may be imagined as testifying, using imagery of travelling in a desert, to the experience that led him to compose those opening lines which perhaps a countless number of people chant today in following his example.
Does Allah exist? Do any of the various conceptions of a creator and sustainer of the universe have any reality apart from the beliefs of those who hold those views?
I don't know.
How may one find out?
Perhaps by following the practices of those who hold such beliefs.
Does that mean that one must believe to know? I doubt it.
2. The Satanic Verses
Epigraph
Satan, being thus confined to a vagabond, wandering, unsettled condition, is without any certain abode; for though he has, in consequence of his angelic nature, a kind of empire in the liquid waste or air, yet this is certainly part of his punishment, that he is . . . without any fixed place, or space, allowed him to rest the sole of his foot upon.
Daniel Defoe, The History of the Devil
A description of Satan, the primary adversary of God, as described in the Bible. An angel, formerly lofty in heaven, but now homeless.
Does Satan exist?
I don't know.
Rushdie is a fiction writer, not a self-described prophet like Muhammed, so where could be going with this?
The unfolding drama of his first chapter should reveal that.
''Self described'' refers to Muhammed's self description, accepted by his followers. Some claim fiction writers may also be prophets but they often do not describe themselves that way.
Can both descriptions have value?
Muhammed was certainly a prophet, because he testified to values beyond the scope of most human beings.
Whether or not a particular imaginative writer is also a prophet may depend on how one interprets the depth of their message.
The creative sensitivities of both authors are evident in those contrastive openings.
This is so even though the openings refer to two total opposites, the creator of the universe and his former lieutenant, now turned rebel, Satan.
These spiritual identities occur in the same religious universe, the Abrahamic tradition represented by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Muhammed's own Koranic lines come through his own verbal expression, though attributed to divine inspiration.
Those of Rushdie are a quote from another writer, but a quote dramatizing powerful imagistic resonance, potent visual force, a vivid evocation of a tragic state.
Clearly, we have here two masters in the art of language, vivifying for us an invisible universe, since neither the creator of the universe or Satan are known as visible entities.
Muhammed projects this vivification through ideational rhythm, a musical balance of ideas, between mercy and wrath, between cosmic creativity and sensitivity to the individual human petitioner, the entire sequence shot through by profound emotional force in the face of the ultimate arbiter of existence, its creator, sustainer and judge.
Rushdie's quote from Daniel Defoe, on the other hand, is also elevated in ideational evocation, lifting the mind to engage the material world, air and other elements, in relation to a mighty but tragic spiritual identity, a creative projection scintillating in its expansion of the mind's imaginative force, its capacity to ''see'' through thought, but the picture generated is one meant to inspire caution and repellence, not identification, as in the Koranic opening.
Two authors, separated by centuries, by very different personalities and histories, in very different parts of the world, but both engaging similar subjects from very different angles.
Where is each of them going with this?
Background to this Post
''Everyone, Muslims and Non-Muslims, Should Read Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses'', Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
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