Dear Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju,
I am compelled to tell you the obvious thing every normal human being ought to know, that I am a product of heterosexuality which means that right from my mother's womb I, like all heterosexual products, have had homophobic genetical code transfused in me. Since my homophobia is genetical, you and others must accord it civil (human) rights protection.
S. Kadiri
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: 06 September 2022 12:58
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Sent: 06 September 2022 12:58
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
I disagree with Kadiri's homophobia but identify with his critique of universalist impositions from anywhere religion.
The fundamentalist understanding of the Abrahamic religions present them as the last word on the mind of God.
The Hebrews said God chose them out of all others, giving them the right to steal others' lands as God's gift to them and even exterminate such populations down to the last human and non-human living thing as commanded by God on at least one occasion.
The fundamentalist Christian view sees Jesus as God incarnate and as the only way to God, superseding the Hebrew understanding of revelation which Jesus developed in his own individualistic way and which his followers expanded upon.
The Islamic orientation understands Muhammed as the "Seal of the Prophets" the culmination of the prophetic tradition initiated with Abraham, possibly the only valid one in history, with Muhammed it's summit, beyond which there shall be no more.
Kadiri is arguing, in contrast to the exclusivist orientations within this family of religions, religions arising from contigous geographical spaces within what one perspective now calls the Middle East, religions representing variations on the Abrahamic inspiration, that if God is inclined to speak in ethnic terms, tailoring messages to particular peoples, as he is said to have done for the Hebrews and the Arabs, why could he not have done so for other peoples too?
Why should one buy into the ethnocentric self celebrations of various ethnicities who localise divine favour in centralising themselves?
Why could God not have spoken in Yoruba to Orunmila, for example?
Ogundiran puts it well in The Yoruba : A New History in stating people universalize their own localities, which Yoruba thought also does, seeking universal significance through the creativities emerging from it's own distinctive development, but as Soyinka puts it in A Credo of Being and Nothingness-one of his best though lesser known works and, in it's seven stanza poem the best short summation of Yoruba cosmology known to me-this unversalization does not operate through belief in superiority over other belief systems, it does not operate in terms of perceving others in terms of falsehood in the conviction that foundational truth must be limited by the narrow configurations of particular systems of thought, but seeks to identify and integrate within itself what is of value in other bodies of knowledge, hence various schools of thought, represented by devotion to various deities in Yoruba cosmology, are not conflicting but complementary, or discrete, devotees doing their own thing without conflict with devotees of other deities and even accommodating Christianity and Islam within it's armbit.
After all, are those others not new religions, with Jesus being born in Yorubaland as "Jewesu" a name later corrupted by the uininformed to the abbreviation 'Jesus" as described and suggested by an ese ifa, a literary work of the Yoruba origin Ifa system?
Is Islam not referenced by a particular Odu Ifa, forms of being representing the totality of existence?
"Seek understanding of the signposts of existence" as Soyinka puts it in that poem which I understand as a Soyinka created scripture of Yoruba origin Orisa spirituality and philosophy, an understanding involving the seeking of value within the diverse, integrating it within the wholeness that the students of Oduduwa and Obatala have been developing for centuries, but acknowledging that since no one knows or can know all, the fragments of the great dispersal from the primal radiation each represents a perspective of some validity into an unknowable totality, as Ulli Beier describes Olodumare in The Return of the Gods, suggested in the fragmentation of Obatala into the multiplicity that is the Orisa, the driving forces of existence, being a reconfiguration that can only partially be reconstituted in thought, as Orunmila tries to do in the gathering of the great one's sundered form in a calabash, a symbol of totality in Yoruba and African thought.
Yoruba spirituality and philosophy, at it's best, may therefore be seen as centrifugal-projecting the universal significance of it's intrinsic nature, and centripetal, integrating within itself the varied insights of other schools of thought.
I began this response by trying to justify Kadiri's position through close attention to particular ideational developments, but was led thereby to developing a particular interpretation of the relationship between the local and the universal in Yoruba thought through the inspiration of Ogundiran as his understanding of Yoruba thought helps interpret Soyinka.
Great thanks for the stimulation, Cornelius and Kadiri.
Toyin
On Tue, Sep 6, 2022, 01:10 Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com> wrote:
A straight question :
How does Baba Kadiri feel about the piece of Civil Rights Legislation in the United States which forbids discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or sexuality?
With the greatest respect, I should like to take up a few issues with Baba Kadiri, the so-called African-Nigerian / "Nigerian African", and as a stickler for the particular, if he wanted to be even more specific, for absolute accuracy he could have described himself as a bonafide Yoruba Nigerian Chauvinist in counter-distinction from other Nigerians of a slightly different ethnic and possibly slightly different ethical variation concerning values and worldview when it comes to the more universal category known as mankind.
Baba Kadiri would like us all to believe that his so-called ethical stand against gay rights is based on pre-colonial principles that have been intrinsic to natural law and Yoruba civilisation long before the advent of Judaism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and the consequent missionary Christianity, not to mention the introduction of Islam to his fatherland, the latter two aforementioned world religions accounting for some 180 million adherents in his post-colonial Nigeria.
As he well knows, half of Nigeria's Yoruba people are Muslim and the other half are Christian even if traditional Yoruba religion is the background from which all Yoruba people emerge. I don't know whether it's history, speculation or mere gossip that the Yoruba people originally came from Ancient Egypt. I don't know how Baba Kadiri feels about this, but there's an awful lot of tittle-tattle in Acedemia.edu that "The Yoruba People Came from Egypt"
With all of the above in mind, I think that it's an extreme case of hubris for Baba Kadiri to go on repeating his position ad nausea that if Almighty God had wanted to get him on board then He should have addressed him directly in his mother tongue, from the very beginning. Has Baba Kadiri ever thought that maybe, the Almighty has a plan for all mankind?
For starters, I should recommend "ISLAM - Religion, History, Civilisation" by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. The introductory paragraphs should whet your appetite and cause you to reconsider the antagonism and disdain with which you dismiss the Messenger that is titled "A mercy to Mankind"
Leon Thomas: The Creator Has a Master Plan
On Monday, 5 September 2022 at 00:15:53 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
As a Nigerian African, I have always believed that if there is one God that created this world and all human beings inside it with different languages, that Almighty God ought to have delivered His messages in all the languages He has created to each linguistic group, if the messages concern all His creations. Since I am neither a Hebrew nor an Arab, I do not commit blasphemy if I don't believe in Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Yeshua Hamashiach (alias Jesus Christ), Allah or Mohammed. Those religious deities never spoke my mother tongue and whatever they proclaimed that God had told them was for their own linguistic group and not for me or any other citizens of Black African nations. In view of the aforesaid, no leader of a government of any country has the right to pronounce death sentence on a person for religious sake as it was in the case of Salman Rushdie who was not even a citizen of Iran. Instead of defending his fundamental human rights to freedom of speech and expression, his unfortunate situation is being exploited to propagate for legal acceptance of sexual perversities in the world.
Derailing the discussion on Wednesday, August 24, 2022, Kenneth Harrow wrote, "I don't know how others on this list feel about gay rights. I believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. I have a lesbian granddaughter. I have gay friends - women, men trans; I know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement and all movements that assert the rights of Muslims, Jews, Christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions." Gay is a U.S. euphemism invented to name the homosexuals, that is to say, men who are sexually attracted to men, the so-called same-sex intercourse. Similarly, a woman who is sexually attracted to women is called a lesbian or a tribade. Why should homosexual rights be equated to the African American civil rights movement of the 1960s? In his speech titled, The Ballot or the Bullet, Malcolm X gave a gist of what civil rights movement was about. Hear him, "If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem. Those Hunkies that just got off the boat, they're already Americans; Polacks are already Americans; the Italian refugees are already Americans. Everything that came out of Europe, every blue-eyed thing, is already an American. And as long as you and I have been over here, we aren't Americans yet. ...//... Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now. They don't have to pass civil-rights legislation to make a Pollack an American (p.25-26, Malcolm X Speaks)." Of recent, I read in the newspapers that 48 States in the U.S., have enacted electoral laws that will prevent Blacks in particular to vote in elections. Although, an African American was president of the U.S., for eight years, it did not prevent the slaughter of Black Americans in the streets like rams, culminating in Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is demeaning to the entire Black race to reduce the segregation and confinement of African Americans to ghettos, denial of access to quality education and the right to vote in elections to the rights of homosexual to copulate freely with one another. Homosexuality is a self-preferred or a self-imposed behaviour because it is unnatural for two heterosexuals to give birth to a homosexual child unless one is talking of a deformed child.
Human beings are not self-pollinating like flowers and as such males and females have to engage in sexual intercourse in order to procreate. In case of assisted pregnancy, the ingredients for In-Vitro-Fertility (IVF) are collected from both a male and a female. Biologically and genetically, every child has a maternal and paternal origin and it cannot be denied that every child is a product of heterosexuality. Unlike animals, human beings don't copulate publicly but discreetly and whatever any grown-up male and female do with themselves inside a locked door is their business and not the concern or duty of anyone to approve or disapprove. Whether for recreation or for procreation, coitus is only natural and normal between a male and a female. The question that follows is what do the homosexuals do sexually that made Kenneth Harrow to elevate their acquired sexual practices to civil rights or fundamental human rights? In his article titled, The Clinical Approach to the Male Homosexual Patient, published in the Med Clinics of North America 1986 vol.70 : p.499-535; Dr William F. Owen Jr., MD, a physician in San Francisco, California, listed sexual behaviours practised by homosexuals of which few are worthy to recall here. (1) Anogenital insertion which is insertion of penis into a male partner's rectum/anus, the so-called anal intercourse. (2) Anogenital reception which is recipient of partner's penis into the rectum/anus. (3) Oro-genital insertion which is insertion of penis into partner's mouth. (4) Oro-genital reception, also called Fellatio, which is recipient of partner's penis into the mouth. (5) Ano-digital insertion which is insertion of finger into partner's rectum /anus. (6) Ano-digital reception which is recipient of partner's finger into the rectum/anus. (7) Ano-manual insertion which is insertion of hand/arm (fist) into partner's rectum/anus. (8) Ano-manual reception which is to receive partner's hand/arm (fist) into the rectum/anus. (9) Oro-anal insertion, also called anilingus, is insertion of tongue into partner's anus to lick it. And (10) Oro-anal reception which is receiving partner's licking tongue on the anus. Among his homosexual patients Dr William F, Owens found men who were afflicted with gonorrhoea of the throat, syphilis of the lip, gonococcal abscess of the rectum, and herpes of the anus after anal and oral sex. One does not need to be a certified religious fanatic to be horrified by what neo-liberal pass off as legitimate homosexual civil rights that must be respected. Anatomically, the anus is not constructed to receive things from below but for the exit of faecal matter, in addition for farting. Mouth too is anatomically constructed to eat food, drink and talk. Neither the mouth nor the anus is a sexual organ. Those are biological facts and not social construction.
In his 1989 book titled, THE MYTH OF HETEROSEXUAL AIDS - HOW A TRAGEDY HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY THE MEDIA AND PARTISAN POLITICS, Michael Fumento wrote about the danger of anal sexual intercourse as follows : The reason for the danger of anal sex in the era of AIDS is in part the difference between the tissue construction of the male urethra and rectum and the female vagina. While the vagina is constructed of tough plate-like cells that resists rupture and infectious agents, and are designed to withstand the motions of intercourse and childbirth, the urethra and rectum are constructed primarily of columnar cells which tear or rupture easily. This allows semen to enter the more readily accessible blood vessels of the rectum or conversely, allows blood from a ruptured rectum to seep into the urethra of the inserted partner in anal intercourse. ..... The vagina provides natural lubrication, whereas there is little in the anus. Anal douching, a practice many homosexuals engage in prior to anal intercourse, can remove what lubrication the anus has ... Non-lubrication not only increases the chance of ruptures but at the same time reduces the efficiency of the condom, which many have touted as the way to turn unsafe homosexual sex into safe sex. The condom has a considerably higher breakage rate during anal sex... (p.45-46). In a note on page 49, Fumento wrote that the homosexuals claim that the anus is not inferior to vagina as a receiver of the penis (anus = vagina). Therefore, according to the homosexuals, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. That anus is not equal to vagina one has to compare what happens when the anus or the vagina is penetrated with the penis.
"The homosexuals," Joan Shenton wrote, "inhaled poppers - amyl and butyl nitrites. This drug was regularly used to enhance sexual pleasure and in particular to help dilate the anal orifice and allow 'fisting' (brachioproctal intercourse in the aggressively promiscuous lifestyle .... The new-found sexual freedom that followed the gay liberation movement ... led some gay men into a fast track, high risk lifestyle, where DRUG-ASSISTED SEX became a necessary part of their daily life .... (p. xx, POSSITIVELY FALSE - EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS, 1998)." Concerning drug-assisted sex that enables homosexuals to sexually penetrate each other's anus with penis Professor Peter H. Duesberg wrote, "During the 1960s, male homosexuals discovered the aphrodisiac effects of nitrites. Receptive anal intercourse became less painful because the anal sphincter (muscle) would relax; therefore, receptive men used far more of the drug than did their inserting partners. Nitrites also helped maintain erections and intensified orgasm, and some users even claimed euphoric 'high' (p. 270, Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg)." In another book titled, AIDS : VIRUS or DRUG INDUCED, Peter H. Duesberg affirmed, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injections of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ... passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are relatively fragile, designed for excretory, not intrusive activity. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases, and many others (p. 177)." If anus were equal to vagina, childbirth would have been occurring through the anus and not through the vagina.
As if the greatest problem confronting Africa is the establishment of homosexual lifestyle, Kenneth Harrow has reproduced a Wikipedia list of African countries that have never criminalised homosexuality and those that have decriminalised it, including the one that has legalised same sex marriage and in addition to those countries that have enacted LGBT anti-discrimination laws. Of course, many African leaders were frightened by President Obama's threat of economic sanction against any African country that did not decriminalize homosexuality in 2014, although as of that time in the U.S., homosexuality was legal only in 17 out 50 U.S., States. www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
[https://cdn.vanguardngr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Obama-in-Chicago.jpg]<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Gay-Marriage Law: US threatens to sanction Nigeria<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Leading western countries piled pressure on the Federal government, yesterday, following President Goodluck Jonathan's signing of the Same-Sex Prohibition Act 2014. The latest country is the ...
www.vanguardngr.com
I am not sure of other indigenous languages in Africa, but in my own mother tongue there is no word for homosexuality, lesbian, oral and anal sex or rape because they are never practised. As bad as we think African leaders are, none of them has ever behaved as President Bil Clinton who in the Oval Office area, thrusted a Cuban cigar into the vagina of Monica Lewinsky and licked it up. And when the blue gown of Monica Lewinsky stained with the sperm of President Clinton surfaced during his impeachment, he admitted inserting his penis into the mouth of Miss Lewinsky for active oral sex. When the economic and industrial development of the U.S., and Western Europe were at the same level as African countries are today, homosexuality was forbidden in their laws. So, why can't U.S., and her allied global ruler uplift Africa to the same level of economic and industrial development they are today before demanding that Africans should adopt their system of sexual perversities as a way of life?
In Africa, two or more women can agree to share a man as a husband, which is called polygamy. But polygamy is criminalized as bigamy in Europe and the U.S. A man who marries more than one wife in the U.S., will be guilty of bigamy and shall be punished by a fine of $500 and in addition to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years. I will like to know from Kenneth Harrow if the civil right of two women agreeing to marry the same man as their husband or a man marrying to two wives is less than that of homosexual (same-sex) marriage? If your answer is positive, why?
S. Kadiri
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
from, wikipedia
Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Burkina_Faso>, Ivory Coast<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ivory_Coast>, Democratic Republic of the Congo<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo>, Djibouti<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Djibouti>, Equatorial Guinea<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Equatorial_Guinea>, Madagascar<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Madagascar>, Mali<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mali>, Niger<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Niger>, and Rwanda<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Rwanda>. It has been decriminalised in Angola<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Angola>, Botswana<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Botswana>, Cape Verde<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cape_Verde>, Gabon<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Gabon>, Guinea-Bissau<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Guinea-Bissau>, Lesotho<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Lesotho>, Mozambique<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mozambique>, São Tomé and Príncipe<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe>, the Seychelles<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Seychelles> and South Africa<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_South_Africa>. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-discrimination_law> exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.
the aarticle goes on to state alll the horrible ways gays are also punished/made illlegall etc in various africa states, the worst also including...northern nigeria. my point is simply that it is an ongoing struggle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/African_homosexuality_laws.svg/1200px-African_homosexuality_laws.svg.png]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
LGBT rights in Africa - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
en.wikipedia.org
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
"more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
First reaction :
From a Muslim point of view, it's not a matter of what society approves, it's a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.
By "society", I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam
Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=the*First*Church*of*Satan*in*San*Francisco__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXrPJLgwP$> , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.
USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*signs*of*the*last*days__;KyUrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXicbUe1R$> !
Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Nation*of*Islam*on*LGBT__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXlF58q6F$>
I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…
The sentence that begins with "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there's a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.
And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sodom*and*Gomorrah__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXk1yYNSx$> - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=MECCA*Institute&ie=UTF-8__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs-xfmcQ$> would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.
Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jpost.com/international/article-715333__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXncN2SFd$>
There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with " O mankind<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Quran**A3A*O*mankind**A21&n__;KyUrKysl!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXmmVE_hF$>" , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Surah*Al-Hujurat*13__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXtyp34Ah$>:
"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."
Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXm5xfpon$> people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…
So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a "disease" because they were either born that way - fitra <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*fitra__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs7hUxeI$> - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?
Since it is not a "disease/ illness", the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work "today". The diagnosis " illness" was retracted in less than 24 hours.
I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear " go ahead and seduce her" I was on the brink of wanting to "convert" a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…
Islam's LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that's precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.
In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*in*Muslim*Nigeria__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsJp2IvP$>
From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: "Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable"<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Ayatollah*Khomeini*declared*transgender*surgical*operations*allowable__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXqmwN-xN$>
On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 01:58:45 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
[https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/proxy/AVvXsEgZAWPg3B5yg3nRI2xp8CQ_YhydLioVv9Am1KJRbgcWvp-fdNj56o0Ga_A695jZzkA0sJPCdujF7V8oWj9PuA0jlnaa_q6aaMSUrNHhbAeGmO8kCTc_7MDw7XbricYo1tcMFa5CMjmBYI8YwMTyiBakhsXton_KiqeoxH8u99JSR6Sef4nb2kPMBhu1fDp-FUUrlIoIdOkkgwIujIHdrMYio6pva3coKpJ6lmv_Z29fc8FaaAI-ueFSZNW9G9glK54W2ZDkpBbpbjNWaC2zyFjr5Ng=s0-d-e1-ft]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Islam - Sunni and Shi'a<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
More than a billion Muslims inhabit this planet, and they inhabit geographic, linguistic and cultural spaces that are enormously diverse. As a result, their beliefs on issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people cannot be easily summarized.
www.hrc.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.hrc.org__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXjutPyTQ$>
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
I do not believe that any so-called "progressive Muslims" can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg's Footnote to Howl<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/54163/footnote-to-howl__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_CnvMcWU$> as one of their main scriptures.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sheikh*Yasser*Habib*views*on*homosexuality__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_I5Bpljd$>
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what's written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rairfoundation.com/when-will-authorities-reveal-hadi-matars-collaborators-demand-justice-for-salman-rushdie-videos/__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_EdIigNe$>
On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.
i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.
for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.
i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.
i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.
my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Still on the matter of censorship - let's move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam*and*gay*rights__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Y3d4nTP$>, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama's recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect " La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal's imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….
LGBT composers in classical music history<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*composers*in*classical*music*history__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dsCY24Q$>
LGBT Writers <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*writers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dxdmYRF$>
LGBT Philosophers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*Philosophers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6S0zmlI_$>
There's also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in " tread softly because you tread on my dreams<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=tread*softly*because*you*tread*on*my*dreams__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6fTdo5fJ$>" that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
"Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink."
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?"
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them."
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
( Numbers 20: 8 - 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9948/jewish/Chapter-20.htm__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TwuScbb$>)
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*churches__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Rjzkbjz$> and some synagogues<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*synagogues__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Tu5UrQE$>. For me, it's difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Obama*bows*to*Saudi*King__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TRKpQ2k$>, wouldn't dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to "legalise" LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That "Pride Sabbath<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Pride*Sabbath__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6SZ-5ALh$>" was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Gay*Rabbis&oq=Gay*Rabbis__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6ZpXM8xg$> and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul*on*homosexuality__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6R6OySF2$> if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what's going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, " I die daily". Jesus on the other hand has already said " Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!"
Senegal: Mbalax 2019 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Mbalax*2019__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6QkRiP3c$>
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
Dear Kenneth,
I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much "free-er" society - and that the women are a lot " free-er", perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.
But, that's very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Tijaniyya__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dMIx_LN$> or the Mourides<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Mourides__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6UtIXHm-$> ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama's 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=2013**A3A*Obama*visits*Senegal*2C*tells*them*to*legalise*homosexuality*and*lesbianism__;KyUrKyslKysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6RK8aA85$>. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Gor**Ae__;w6k!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YgT20Vs$> to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don't exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Amadou*Bamba__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6a6dQKTA$> and Cheikh Anta Diop<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Cheikh*Anta*Diop__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YO1tw48$> country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?
I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vUEx7emNnI__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6embfe_-$> ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Karmen*Gei.&newwindow=1&client=avast-a-1&tbm=vid&source=lnt&tbs=dur:l&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcnYKu7dz5AhXKhFwKHcVMCokQpwV6BAgBEBc&biw=1536&bih=750&dpr=1.25__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6euIMhgr$>, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?
Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)
The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzUfbHMoWE__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bNJJZii$>
Kora and N'goni Music<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DT2xHqUtCw__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bHlZD-P$>
BEST OF MBALAX 2020<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baIPdd7ouP0__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TlYxhLX$>
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius
yes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).
the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.
the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.
the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Dear Kenneth,
It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://V.I.Ps__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6duHNasl$>
You must have seen them many times in Senegal.
Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie's is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:
"And if my thought-dreams could be seen.
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"
Perhaps, there's the same confusion about Jesus walking on water<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcpEdh5Po$> as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.
Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water*2C*was*Peter*dreaming*3F&n__;KysrJSsrKyU!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcgjSzfW4$>, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.
Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*walking*on*water__;KyUrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZctYvcwSo$>.
Another siddhi is levitation<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*levitation__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZchNUe0dl$>. There are many different siddhis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=The*Siddhis**A28*superpowers__;KyslKw!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcowBX_8N$>. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn't? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.
Preacherman also says that " Faith can move mountains" ( mountains of problems)
" And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the wate<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard*Cohen**A3A*And*Jesus*was*a*sailor*when*he*walked*upon*the*water__;KyslKysrKysrKysrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-Zcsc7E2JQ$>r" ( Leonard Cohen)
With e.g. "Jesus Christ Superstar " in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don't ever let them come back here.
Re - your footnote:
How does
Yambo Ouologuem : Bound to Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Yambo*Ouologuem**A3A*Bound*to*Violence__;KyslKysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcnzwvR5j$>
compare with
Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons<
On Tue, Sep 6, 2022, 01:10 Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com> wrote:
A straight question :
How does Baba Kadiri feel about the piece of Civil Rights Legislation in the United States which forbids discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or sexuality?
With the greatest respect, I should like to take up a few issues with Baba Kadiri, the so-called African-Nigerian / "Nigerian African", and as a stickler for the particular, if he wanted to be even more specific, for absolute accuracy he could have described himself as a bonafide Yoruba Nigerian Chauvinist in counter-distinction from other Nigerians of a slightly different ethnic and possibly slightly different ethical variation concerning values and worldview when it comes to the more universal category known as mankind.
Baba Kadiri would like us all to believe that his so-called ethical stand against gay rights is based on pre-colonial principles that have been intrinsic to natural law and Yoruba civilisation long before the advent of Judaism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and the consequent missionary Christianity, not to mention the introduction of Islam to his fatherland, the latter two aforementioned world religions accounting for some 180 million adherents in his post-colonial Nigeria.
As he well knows, half of Nigeria's Yoruba people are Muslim and the other half are Christian even if traditional Yoruba religion is the background from which all Yoruba people emerge. I don't know whether it's history, speculation or mere gossip that the Yoruba people originally came from Ancient Egypt. I don't know how Baba Kadiri feels about this, but there's an awful lot of tittle-tattle in Acedemia.edu that "The Yoruba People Came from Egypt"
With all of the above in mind, I think that it's an extreme case of hubris for Baba Kadiri to go on repeating his position ad nausea that if Almighty God had wanted to get him on board then He should have addressed him directly in his mother tongue, from the very beginning. Has Baba Kadiri ever thought that maybe, the Almighty has a plan for all mankind?
For starters, I should recommend "ISLAM - Religion, History, Civilisation" by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. The introductory paragraphs should whet your appetite and cause you to reconsider the antagonism and disdain with which you dismiss the Messenger that is titled "A mercy to Mankind"
Leon Thomas: The Creator Has a Master Plan
On Monday, 5 September 2022 at 00:15:53 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
As a Nigerian African, I have always believed that if there is one God that created this world and all human beings inside it with different languages, that Almighty God ought to have delivered His messages in all the languages He has created to each linguistic group, if the messages concern all His creations. Since I am neither a Hebrew nor an Arab, I do not commit blasphemy if I don't believe in Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Yeshua Hamashiach (alias Jesus Christ), Allah or Mohammed. Those religious deities never spoke my mother tongue and whatever they proclaimed that God had told them was for their own linguistic group and not for me or any other citizens of Black African nations. In view of the aforesaid, no leader of a government of any country has the right to pronounce death sentence on a person for religious sake as it was in the case of Salman Rushdie who was not even a citizen of Iran. Instead of defending his fundamental human rights to freedom of speech and expression, his unfortunate situation is being exploited to propagate for legal acceptance of sexual perversities in the world.
Derailing the discussion on Wednesday, August 24, 2022, Kenneth Harrow wrote, "I don't know how others on this list feel about gay rights. I believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. I have a lesbian granddaughter. I have gay friends - women, men trans; I know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement and all movements that assert the rights of Muslims, Jews, Christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions." Gay is a U.S. euphemism invented to name the homosexuals, that is to say, men who are sexually attracted to men, the so-called same-sex intercourse. Similarly, a woman who is sexually attracted to women is called a lesbian or a tribade. Why should homosexual rights be equated to the African American civil rights movement of the 1960s? In his speech titled, The Ballot or the Bullet, Malcolm X gave a gist of what civil rights movement was about. Hear him, "If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem. Those Hunkies that just got off the boat, they're already Americans; Polacks are already Americans; the Italian refugees are already Americans. Everything that came out of Europe, every blue-eyed thing, is already an American. And as long as you and I have been over here, we aren't Americans yet. ...//... Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now. They don't have to pass civil-rights legislation to make a Pollack an American (p.25-26, Malcolm X Speaks)." Of recent, I read in the newspapers that 48 States in the U.S., have enacted electoral laws that will prevent Blacks in particular to vote in elections. Although, an African American was president of the U.S., for eight years, it did not prevent the slaughter of Black Americans in the streets like rams, culminating in Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is demeaning to the entire Black race to reduce the segregation and confinement of African Americans to ghettos, denial of access to quality education and the right to vote in elections to the rights of homosexual to copulate freely with one another. Homosexuality is a self-preferred or a self-imposed behaviour because it is unnatural for two heterosexuals to give birth to a homosexual child unless one is talking of a deformed child.
Human beings are not self-pollinating like flowers and as such males and females have to engage in sexual intercourse in order to procreate. In case of assisted pregnancy, the ingredients for In-Vitro-Fertility (IVF) are collected from both a male and a female. Biologically and genetically, every child has a maternal and paternal origin and it cannot be denied that every child is a product of heterosexuality. Unlike animals, human beings don't copulate publicly but discreetly and whatever any grown-up male and female do with themselves inside a locked door is their business and not the concern or duty of anyone to approve or disapprove. Whether for recreation or for procreation, coitus is only natural and normal between a male and a female. The question that follows is what do the homosexuals do sexually that made Kenneth Harrow to elevate their acquired sexual practices to civil rights or fundamental human rights? In his article titled, The Clinical Approach to the Male Homosexual Patient, published in the Med Clinics of North America 1986 vol.70 : p.499-535; Dr William F. Owen Jr., MD, a physician in San Francisco, California, listed sexual behaviours practised by homosexuals of which few are worthy to recall here. (1) Anogenital insertion which is insertion of penis into a male partner's rectum/anus, the so-called anal intercourse. (2) Anogenital reception which is recipient of partner's penis into the rectum/anus. (3) Oro-genital insertion which is insertion of penis into partner's mouth. (4) Oro-genital reception, also called Fellatio, which is recipient of partner's penis into the mouth. (5) Ano-digital insertion which is insertion of finger into partner's rectum /anus. (6) Ano-digital reception which is recipient of partner's finger into the rectum/anus. (7) Ano-manual insertion which is insertion of hand/arm (fist) into partner's rectum/anus. (8) Ano-manual reception which is to receive partner's hand/arm (fist) into the rectum/anus. (9) Oro-anal insertion, also called anilingus, is insertion of tongue into partner's anus to lick it. And (10) Oro-anal reception which is receiving partner's licking tongue on the anus. Among his homosexual patients Dr William F, Owens found men who were afflicted with gonorrhoea of the throat, syphilis of the lip, gonococcal abscess of the rectum, and herpes of the anus after anal and oral sex. One does not need to be a certified religious fanatic to be horrified by what neo-liberal pass off as legitimate homosexual civil rights that must be respected. Anatomically, the anus is not constructed to receive things from below but for the exit of faecal matter, in addition for farting. Mouth too is anatomically constructed to eat food, drink and talk. Neither the mouth nor the anus is a sexual organ. Those are biological facts and not social construction.
In his 1989 book titled, THE MYTH OF HETEROSEXUAL AIDS - HOW A TRAGEDY HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY THE MEDIA AND PARTISAN POLITICS, Michael Fumento wrote about the danger of anal sexual intercourse as follows : The reason for the danger of anal sex in the era of AIDS is in part the difference between the tissue construction of the male urethra and rectum and the female vagina. While the vagina is constructed of tough plate-like cells that resists rupture and infectious agents, and are designed to withstand the motions of intercourse and childbirth, the urethra and rectum are constructed primarily of columnar cells which tear or rupture easily. This allows semen to enter the more readily accessible blood vessels of the rectum or conversely, allows blood from a ruptured rectum to seep into the urethra of the inserted partner in anal intercourse. ..... The vagina provides natural lubrication, whereas there is little in the anus. Anal douching, a practice many homosexuals engage in prior to anal intercourse, can remove what lubrication the anus has ... Non-lubrication not only increases the chance of ruptures but at the same time reduces the efficiency of the condom, which many have touted as the way to turn unsafe homosexual sex into safe sex. The condom has a considerably higher breakage rate during anal sex... (p.45-46). In a note on page 49, Fumento wrote that the homosexuals claim that the anus is not inferior to vagina as a receiver of the penis (anus = vagina). Therefore, according to the homosexuals, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. That anus is not equal to vagina one has to compare what happens when the anus or the vagina is penetrated with the penis.
"The homosexuals," Joan Shenton wrote, "inhaled poppers - amyl and butyl nitrites. This drug was regularly used to enhance sexual pleasure and in particular to help dilate the anal orifice and allow 'fisting' (brachioproctal intercourse in the aggressively promiscuous lifestyle .... The new-found sexual freedom that followed the gay liberation movement ... led some gay men into a fast track, high risk lifestyle, where DRUG-ASSISTED SEX became a necessary part of their daily life .... (p. xx, POSSITIVELY FALSE - EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS, 1998)." Concerning drug-assisted sex that enables homosexuals to sexually penetrate each other's anus with penis Professor Peter H. Duesberg wrote, "During the 1960s, male homosexuals discovered the aphrodisiac effects of nitrites. Receptive anal intercourse became less painful because the anal sphincter (muscle) would relax; therefore, receptive men used far more of the drug than did their inserting partners. Nitrites also helped maintain erections and intensified orgasm, and some users even claimed euphoric 'high' (p. 270, Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg)." In another book titled, AIDS : VIRUS or DRUG INDUCED, Peter H. Duesberg affirmed, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injections of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ... passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are relatively fragile, designed for excretory, not intrusive activity. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases, and many others (p. 177)." If anus were equal to vagina, childbirth would have been occurring through the anus and not through the vagina.
As if the greatest problem confronting Africa is the establishment of homosexual lifestyle, Kenneth Harrow has reproduced a Wikipedia list of African countries that have never criminalised homosexuality and those that have decriminalised it, including the one that has legalised same sex marriage and in addition to those countries that have enacted LGBT anti-discrimination laws. Of course, many African leaders were frightened by President Obama's threat of economic sanction against any African country that did not decriminalize homosexuality in 2014, although as of that time in the U.S., homosexuality was legal only in 17 out 50 U.S., States. www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
[https://cdn.vanguardngr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Obama-in-Chicago.jpg]<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Gay-Marriage Law: US threatens to sanction Nigeria<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Leading western countries piled pressure on the Federal government, yesterday, following President Goodluck Jonathan's signing of the Same-Sex Prohibition Act 2014. The latest country is the ...
www.vanguardngr.com
I am not sure of other indigenous languages in Africa, but in my own mother tongue there is no word for homosexuality, lesbian, oral and anal sex or rape because they are never practised. As bad as we think African leaders are, none of them has ever behaved as President Bil Clinton who in the Oval Office area, thrusted a Cuban cigar into the vagina of Monica Lewinsky and licked it up. And when the blue gown of Monica Lewinsky stained with the sperm of President Clinton surfaced during his impeachment, he admitted inserting his penis into the mouth of Miss Lewinsky for active oral sex. When the economic and industrial development of the U.S., and Western Europe were at the same level as African countries are today, homosexuality was forbidden in their laws. So, why can't U.S., and her allied global ruler uplift Africa to the same level of economic and industrial development they are today before demanding that Africans should adopt their system of sexual perversities as a way of life?
In Africa, two or more women can agree to share a man as a husband, which is called polygamy. But polygamy is criminalized as bigamy in Europe and the U.S. A man who marries more than one wife in the U.S., will be guilty of bigamy and shall be punished by a fine of $500 and in addition to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years. I will like to know from Kenneth Harrow if the civil right of two women agreeing to marry the same man as their husband or a man marrying to two wives is less than that of homosexual (same-sex) marriage? If your answer is positive, why?
S. Kadiri
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
from, wikipedia
Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Burkina_Faso>, Ivory Coast<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ivory_Coast>, Democratic Republic of the Congo<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo>, Djibouti<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Djibouti>, Equatorial Guinea<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Equatorial_Guinea>, Madagascar<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Madagascar>, Mali<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mali>, Niger<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Niger>, and Rwanda<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Rwanda>. It has been decriminalised in Angola<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Angola>, Botswana<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Botswana>, Cape Verde<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cape_Verde>, Gabon<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Gabon>, Guinea-Bissau<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Guinea-Bissau>, Lesotho<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Lesotho>, Mozambique<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mozambique>, São Tomé and Príncipe<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe>, the Seychelles<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Seychelles> and South Africa<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_South_Africa>. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-discrimination_law> exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.
the aarticle goes on to state alll the horrible ways gays are also punished/made illlegall etc in various africa states, the worst also including...northern nigeria. my point is simply that it is an ongoing struggle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/African_homosexuality_laws.svg/1200px-African_homosexuality_laws.svg.png]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
LGBT rights in Africa - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
en.wikipedia.org
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
"more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
First reaction :
From a Muslim point of view, it's not a matter of what society approves, it's a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.
By "society", I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam
Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=the*First*Church*of*Satan*in*San*Francisco__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXrPJLgwP$> , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.
USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*signs*of*the*last*days__;KyUrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXicbUe1R$> !
Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Nation*of*Islam*on*LGBT__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXlF58q6F$>
I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…
The sentence that begins with "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there's a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.
And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sodom*and*Gomorrah__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXk1yYNSx$> - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=MECCA*Institute&ie=UTF-8__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs-xfmcQ$> would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.
Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jpost.com/international/article-715333__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXncN2SFd$>
There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with " O mankind<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Quran**A3A*O*mankind**A21&n__;KyUrKysl!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXmmVE_hF$>" , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Surah*Al-Hujurat*13__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXtyp34Ah$>:
"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."
Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXm5xfpon$> people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…
So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a "disease" because they were either born that way - fitra <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*fitra__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs7hUxeI$> - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?
Since it is not a "disease/ illness", the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work "today". The diagnosis " illness" was retracted in less than 24 hours.
I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear " go ahead and seduce her" I was on the brink of wanting to "convert" a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…
Islam's LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that's precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.
In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*in*Muslim*Nigeria__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsJp2IvP$>
From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: "Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable"<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Ayatollah*Khomeini*declared*transgender*surgical*operations*allowable__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXqmwN-xN$>
On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 01:58:45 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
[https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/proxy/AVvXsEgZAWPg3B5yg3nRI2xp8CQ_YhydLioVv9Am1KJRbgcWvp-fdNj56o0Ga_A695jZzkA0sJPCdujF7V8oWj9PuA0jlnaa_q6aaMSUrNHhbAeGmO8kCTc_7MDw7XbricYo1tcMFa5CMjmBYI8YwMTyiBakhsXton_KiqeoxH8u99JSR6Sef4nb2kPMBhu1fDp-FUUrlIoIdOkkgwIujIHdrMYio6pva3coKpJ6lmv_Z29fc8FaaAI-ueFSZNW9G9glK54W2ZDkpBbpbjNWaC2zyFjr5Ng=s0-d-e1-ft]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Islam - Sunni and Shi'a<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
More than a billion Muslims inhabit this planet, and they inhabit geographic, linguistic and cultural spaces that are enormously diverse. As a result, their beliefs on issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people cannot be easily summarized.
www.hrc.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.hrc.org__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXjutPyTQ$>
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.
I do not believe that any so-called "progressive Muslims" can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg's Footnote to Howl<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/54163/footnote-to-howl__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_CnvMcWU$> as one of their main scriptures.
On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sheikh*Yasser*Habib*views*on*homosexuality__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_I5Bpljd$>
As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what's written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rairfoundation.com/when-will-authorities-reveal-hadi-matars-collaborators-demand-justice-for-salman-rushdie-videos/__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_EdIigNe$>
On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.
i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.
for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.
i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.
i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.
my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Still on the matter of censorship - let's move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam*and*gay*rights__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Y3d4nTP$>, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama's recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect " La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal's imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….
LGBT composers in classical music history<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*composers*in*classical*music*history__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dsCY24Q$>
LGBT Writers <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*writers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dxdmYRF$>
LGBT Philosophers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*Philosophers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6S0zmlI_$>
There's also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…
After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in " tread softly because you tread on my dreams<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=tread*softly*because*you*tread*on*my*dreams__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6fTdo5fJ$>" that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
"Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink."
Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.
Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?"
Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them."
These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them
( Numbers 20: 8 - 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9948/jewish/Chapter-20.htm__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TwuScbb$>)
Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*churches__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Rjzkbjz$> and some synagogues<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*synagogues__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Tu5UrQE$>. For me, it's difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Obama*bows*to*Saudi*King__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TRKpQ2k$>, wouldn't dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to "legalise" LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation
That "Pride Sabbath<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Pride*Sabbath__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6SZ-5ALh$>" was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Gay*Rabbis&oq=Gay*Rabbis__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6ZpXM8xg$> and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul*on*homosexuality__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6R6OySF2$> if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what's going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, " I die daily". Jesus on the other hand has already said " Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!"
Senegal: Mbalax 2019 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Mbalax*2019__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6QkRiP3c$>
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
Dear Kenneth,
I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much "free-er" society - and that the women are a lot " free-er", perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.
But, that's very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Tijaniyya__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dMIx_LN$> or the Mourides<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Mourides__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6UtIXHm-$> ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama's 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=2013**A3A*Obama*visits*Senegal*2C*tells*them*to*legalise*homosexuality*and*lesbianism__;KyUrKyslKysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6RK8aA85$>. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Gor**Ae__;w6k!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YgT20Vs$> to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don't exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Amadou*Bamba__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6a6dQKTA$> and Cheikh Anta Diop<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Cheikh*Anta*Diop__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YO1tw48$> country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?
I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vUEx7emNnI__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6embfe_-$> ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Karmen*Gei.&newwindow=1&client=avast-a-1&tbm=vid&source=lnt&tbs=dur:l&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcnYKu7dz5AhXKhFwKHcVMCokQpwV6BAgBEBc&biw=1536&bih=750&dpr=1.25__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6euIMhgr$>, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?
Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)
The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzUfbHMoWE__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bNJJZii$>
Kora and N'goni Music<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DT2xHqUtCw__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bHlZD-P$>
BEST OF MBALAX 2020<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baIPdd7ouP0__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TlYxhLX$>
On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius
yes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).
the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.
the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.
the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>
har...@msu.edu
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: A Comparative Reading
Dear Kenneth,
It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://V.I.Ps__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6duHNasl$>
You must have seen them many times in Senegal.
Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie's is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:
"And if my thought-dreams could be seen.
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"
Perhaps, there's the same confusion about Jesus walking on water<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcpEdh5Po$> as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.
Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water*2C*was*Peter*dreaming*3F&n__;KysrJSsrKyU!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcgjSzfW4$>, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.
Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*walking*on*water__;KyUrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZctYvcwSo$>.
Another siddhi is levitation<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*levitation__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZchNUe0dl$>. There are many different siddhis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=The*Siddhis**A28*superpowers__;KyslKw!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcowBX_8N$>. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn't? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.
Preacherman also says that " Faith can move mountains" ( mountains of problems)
" And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the wate<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard*Cohen**A3A*And*Jesus*was*a*sailor*when*he*walked*upon*the*water__;KyslKysrKysrKysrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-Zcsc7E2JQ$>r" ( Leonard Cohen)
With e.g. "Jesus Christ Superstar " in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don't ever let them come back here.
Re - your footnote:
How does
Yambo Ouologuem : Bound to Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Yambo*Ouologuem**A3A*Bound*to*Violence__;KyslKysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcnzwvR5j$>
compare with
Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons<
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