Thursday, September 15, 2022

Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

​The most difficult problem that one encounters while engaging you in a discussion is your profound ability to be psychotic and veering off to discuss unrelated matters. The topic which the current discussion seeks to find answer to is whether there were correspondent words for homosexuality and other sexual perversities indigenous African languages before slavery, colonialism, Christianity and Islamic era. And if such words in indigenous African languages existed, it is just to state them. As if the topic under discussion is about devouring of carcases, you referred to your telephone conversation in Krio with one Vulture in Sierra Leone a few days ago. What your conversation in Krio has to do with indigenous African language word for homosexual is beyond the comprehension of any normal person.

Just as there is no logical association between indigenous African language word for homosexual and your conversation in Krio with Vulture in Sierra Leone, so is it incomprehensible for me what Google's profile on me (which I have never been aware of until now) has to do with the topic about homosexuality under discussion. I am neither the author nor a collaborator to the contents of the Google's publication, irrelevantly posted by you on this discourse. Whatever your homo-lobbyists and charlatan psychologists may propound as latent homosexual does not affect me, that I am sure you know yourself unless you want to be dangerously dishonest. As for your insinuation that I am shrilly homophobic, I will respond to that later.
S. Kadiri 


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com>
Sent: 14 September 2022 18:41
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading
 

Dear Baba Salimonu Kadiri of Ondo and Stockholmo,

You could be "a heterosexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean in the night, a bisexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean in the morning and a homosexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean Yoruba in the afternoon." - You -  Not me. I'm and have always been heterosexual and intend to stay that way, thank you. 

You are so shrilly homophobic that there's a possibility that you may be a latent homosexual  - that's what some of the psychologists say about people who are so hostile to the idea. In your case, it could be Baba Kadiri and ancient Yoruba mythology versus science ( and technology)  

There's even speculation about Paul

 I thought about you yesterday as I watched this  - and the Google Engineer on His Sentient AI Claim - wondering, what's the world coming to? Soon the machine will know that it's writing poetry! 

Baba Kadiri, if only you would be decent enough - in the cultured and cultivated, good old Yoruba manner -  to spare us all the gross physical, anatomical, sexual details -  holding up holes, pointing at vaginas, waving and brandishing penises etc in this very public forum in which there are ladies present! 

 It would seem that we haven't made much progress since the last time that we broached this subject matter. I suppose that if you returned to earth a thousand years from today you'd still be preaching about the ground on which you stand: Ancient Yoruba praxis, ancient Yoruba sexual mores before  - as you allege - before colonialism came and mucked up everything that the Yoruba folk knew as natural and worshipped as sacred. 

With this your rhetorical flair that " When it comes to sexual love, truth is not circumlocutory, truth is constant, it doesn't shift, it doesn't move, it doesn't twist and turn.",  I'm happy to note - positively -  that you seem to be well acquainted with Paul's 1 Corinthians 13 ( with either the New International Version or other approximate translations into Yoruba ) and would like to redirect your attention to Paul as you seem to me to be either following or echoing his rhetorical trajectory when he flares on  thusly:

"  If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.  If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.  If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.  It always protects, always trusts, always hope, always perseveres.

 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.  For we know in part and we prophesy in part,  but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.  When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now, we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 And now these three remain faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

 Please note, Paul'soverwhelming emphasis on LOVE ( the greatest )

Love.

Now, what you obviously don't understand and it seems, cannot comprehend is that this vital element called love  - also exists, we are to assume, in full measure too, with the people you despise as LGBTQ. 

 As to your request that I should provide linguistic evidence to counter your claim that homosexuality etc never existed on the African Continent before missionary and colonial incursions into virgin Yoruba territory,  I'd just like to say this: I am not privy to what goes on in the numerous Secret Societies in Africa. I have read a number of doctoral theses on the subject but I'm reluctant to go any further into the matter. You could of course enquire from members of certain secret societies and even take the bold, adventurous step of joining one of them so as to be privy to reliable information and maybe even practise from the inside. 



On Wednesday, 14 September 2022 at 16:51:28 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
​Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg,
Thank you for your amusing tirades below and elsewhere. I am also pleased with your information to readers that you are blessed not only with a son and two daughters but with three grandchildren who are all of male genders. By indicating that your children consist of a son and two daughters who together have made you a grandfather to three male-children imply that they are not genderless. What then are you grumbling about, Menahem Hamelberg? You did not insert your penis inside someone's rectum/anus but inside a female's vagina to become a father to a son and two daughters. Your son must have followed your vaginal coitus steps to make you a grand-father and none of your daughters had offered their anus/rectum for males' penis penetration to make you a grandfather. When it comes to sexual love, truth is not circumlocutory, truth is constant, it doesn't shift, it doesn't move, it doesn't twist and turn. Thus, you were not a homophobic Creole chauvinist patriarch when you thrusted your penis into the vagina of your wife and wriggled it inside there to eventually procreate your three children. That leads to indisputable truth that you and I are on the same page as far as heterosexual behaviour and procreation are concerned. Should you, however, inform me that you are a bisexual, I won't develop any phobia or hatred for you, except that whenever I meet you, especially, in a secluded area, I will wear a steel pant to fortify my shit hole from any attempt at intrusive penetration. Saying that one should insert the penis in the appropriate place when it comes to sexual intercourse is not hatred or phobia against any deviant preferring to insert it inside the mouth or in the rectum/anus. Certainly, you are not a bisexual and you being a lackey to the LGBT is just a liberal prance. You can't eat the beef and turn around to deny tasting the soup in which it is cooked. 

I want to assure you that I had no intention to kaka on your ancestry and moreover, my Yoruba parents could not have taught me anything about you since, to them, you were an inanimate object they never knew. Regarding my chameleonic tripod wishes, I apologise to you for expressing myself somehow in a careless way. How I wish, in order to please you, to be able to interchange like a chameleon, between being a heterosexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean in the night, a bisexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean in the morning and a homosexual Yoruba Sierra Leonean Yoruba in the afternoon.

In his latest psycho-babble, Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg submitted, "Baba Solomon (sic) Kadiri would like us to believe in the ideal Yoruba Nation of his imagination, in which there was no word corresponding to 'homosexual' 'Lesbian' 'rape' - maybe even adultery and fornication etc because such people and from his immaculate point of view, such evil did not exist in Yoruba land." If the us in the sentence refers to the homosexual, lesbian and rapist lobby, I don't need to imagine anything to make your lobby believe that the Yoruba people never had corresponding words in their language for homosexual, lesbian, and rape because they were never practised. The only sensible way to support your claim that my assertion that there were no correspondent words in Yoruba for homosexual, lesbian and rape, is an ideal Yoruba Nation of my imagination, is to publish the corresponding words in Yoruba so that everyone can see. That should not be a problem for you who is known for being extremely addicted to google. As you might have noticed, I did not limit my assertion of non-existence of the sexual perversities in question to Yoruba people of Nigeria, but entire Africa. Thus, I have challenged you and other Africans on this forum to publish the exact words for homosexual, lesbian and rape in their respective native language. Instead of being crabby, what an intelligent Sierra Leonean like you should do, is to publish what those sexual perverties were called in your Sierra Leaonean mother tongue before the advent of slavery, Christianity, Islam and colonialism in Africa. 
S. Kadiri 


Sent: 09 September 2022 18:51

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Baba Kadiri ( homophobic Yoruba chauvinist patriarch ); 

I would like to advise you against escalation; try to seek peace and pursue it - or be prepared to face the unpleasant consequences.

Morning, noon and night, I'm the same one - just like the Holy Trinity that I'm sure some Yoruba missionaries patiently explained to you, once upon a time in Yoruba, a language which I'm sure you can understand, as it should be understood. 

Do you want to kaka on my ancestry? Me, a "Sierra Leonean Jew in the morning, a Sierra Leonean Yoruba in the afternoon and a Sierra Leonean British in the evening."? Really? And who are you,  may I ask? Is that what your Yoruba parents taught you about me? I know my genealogy very well and I'm not about to start altercating with the likes of you about who you think I am. I know who I am,  I know who my parents are, my grandparents, and my great-grandparents. I also have three brothers and a sister, a son and two daughters - and three grandchildren, all boys. I have and have had uncles, aunts, cousins, and friends; 98% of my Sierra Leonean friends were/ are Creoles. The Yoruba element that seems to fascinate you so much is not such a big deal with me. I have never been anywhere near " Yoruba-land"  - Yoruba guitar is the guitar music that I find least interesting on the world music menu. 

Culture would be very much an essential part of my identity. I'd say that the "Sierra Leonean'' element is not that pronounced  - the Krio Language is very much there of course - I talked to George Morgan for the better part of an hour, just a few days ago  - in Krio - we laughed most of the time  - he's a dentist back home, returned home after studying in Germany and teaching at a University there for a good six years  - he's currently on vacation in Maryland; his older brother Tommy, was Sierra Leone's Minister of Finance, a while back - we reminisced about the good old days. I was last in Sierra Leone - and for only ten days, over 52 years ago, and then back to Ghana. Those who really love Sierra Leone are there, most of the time. 

 "A Sierra Leonean British ''? You must be mad and are showing early warning signs of the dreaded dementia. What are you talking about? Yes, I had a British passport some time ago. I also like the language, the literature, and the people.

As Derek Walcott puts it The Schooner Flight 

"I'm just a red nigger who love the sea,

I had a sound colonial education,

I have Dutch, nigger, and English in me,

and either I'm nobody, or I'm a nation"

Right now, some of us are mourning the passing away of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II.

When I arrived in London in 1952, Sir Winston Churchill was the prime Minister of the United Kingdom and remained in that position until 1955 when I was still attending primary school in Fulham. The Queen's Coronation was in June 1953  - and I was very much aware of what was happening in the UK, even then. Fast forward, the next time I saw Her Majesty was during her visit to Sierra  Leone, in 1961. History can only attest to what a wonderful person is, she was and will always be! 

Right now, I assume that  you must be feeling quite pleased with  yourself, having just awarded yourself a pleasant moment in the sun, but let me put it straight to you, that there's no chameleon about me, perhaps some complexity  and  in all humility I shouldn't want to describe myself as a simpleton  - like you - and,  subjectively speaking I'd say that I'm straighter than you  - and that you are perhaps a hypocrite,  the very one being referred to by Abiodun Oyewole & Co in these lines:

"The change in the day that makes them rant and rave

"Black Power! Black Power!"

And the change that comes over them at night, as they sigh and moan:

"White thighs, ooh, white thighs"

Since you love proverbs, here are some for you: "Idle hands are the devil's workshop; idle lips are his mouthpiece; an evil man sows strife; gossip separates the best of friends. Wickedness loves company—and leads others into sin"

If you have nothing better to do, you had better check this out : 

"Interracial Sex as Taboo: The New Imperialism, Christian Victorian Values, Nationalism, and the Legacies of Intimacy in the Colony of Sierra Leone, 1861–1914"  by Nigel Browne-Davies







On Friday, 9 September 2022 at 15:08:00 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
​Menahem Hamelberg,
I thank my Eledumare that Sappho was not an African person and therefore in the name of liberalism we cannot give pure biology a savage twist concerning what sexual love implies. On being a Yoruba chauvinist, how I wish I were a chameleon so that I can interchange between being a Sierra Leonean Jew in the morning, a Sierra Leonean Yoruba in the afternoon and a Sierra Leonean British in the evening.
S. Kadiri


Sent: 09 September 2022 09:11

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Baba Kadiri, 

That was an ancient, straightforward, prescriptive, stiff upper lip conservative, traditionalist, culturally patriarchal,  male chauvinist Yorubaman talking,  reasonably, of course, and true to the values that he so cherishes. 

I only disagree with your limiting love - including sexual love -  to that which you believe can only occur between a man and a woman. 

For brevity's sake let us limit ourselves to this one name: Sappho

I rest my case



On Friday, 9 September 2022 at 00:12:53 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
​Menahem Hamelberg,
Why should I swim along with the stream if I know it is going to float me to the middle of a deep river where I will eventually drown? I will always swim against the stream to ensure landing safely on the coast.

You asked, "If Baba Kadiri were to be moral inspector-general/Minister of Justice of the Nigerian Federation - including the twelve Northern Sharia States, what measures would he recommend in order to curb or turn the tide against the equal rights for LGBT fellow human beings whose main aim is also to love?"
The last word in your question, love, is not specific but I guess you mean sexual love. If my guess is right, then your question is wrongly framed. What constitutes sexual love between two persons of a male and a female genders is biologically pre-determined and has nothing to do with religious belief of any kind or moral. Biologically, physiologically, and anatomically, every part of human body is naturally designed to perform certain functions. You don't stand on your head, instead of your feet, to walk in the street and claim that is your preferred way of walking. The foremost purpose of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is to procreate and not for recreational pleasure. That was why in the Yorubaland of my great grandfathers, when a wife had attained the age of menopause, she would take initiative to negotiate a wife of fertile age for the husband, so that the husband would not waist his sperm which could become a child in her. As I referenced elsewhere before, Lord Lugard, the first colonial Governor General of Nigeria was amazed that African Negro husbands, in general, used to abstain from sexual intercourse with their wives while suckling a child for a period of two to three years. That shows that Black Africans never regarded sexual intercourse as a recreation. Your question suggests that there are different kinds of sexual intercourse but that is biologically false. The natural habitat of the male's penis in a sexual love is the female's vagina. But that is not what your LGBT want since according to them the rectum/anus and the mouth are equal to vagina which can serve as recipients of penis in their own alternative behaviour regarding sexual intercourse.

You introduced another type of perversity called polyandry. I don't know why? If a child is born in a polyandry family, who will be the biological father of the child? However, in a polyandry family where a woman is married to more than a man, she would have vaginal sexual intercourse with all her husbands turn by turn. To outsiders, such sexual behaviour may look odd and immoral but it does not violate any biological law as long as she is strong enough to receive all the males' penis into her vagina. In practical life, there used to be surplus women than men in a country and, in a situation, where women are surplus, it will be unreasonable for a woman to marry to more than a man at a time.

You seemed appalled by my suggestion that men should masturbate instead of paying women for thrusting and withdrawing their sword inside women's sheath. In current debates on abortion, the powers that be argued that allowing abortion is a right of women to control their body. Both men and women know the consequent of sexual intercourse without contraception, yet they go ahead to copulate. Where a woman is pregnant as a result of rape, abortion should automatically be allowed on request by the victim of rape. But where a woman voluntarily sleeps around with men and she gets pregnant, her irresponsible coitus is not an act of controlling her body. A woman must therefore take responsibility for her deliberate illicit coition if it results into pregnancy. If a man is in control of his body, he will never thrust into and withdraw, at will, his sword from the sheath of a woman to whom he is not married. Similarly, a woman who is in control of her body will never allow one-eye snake of a man, to whom she is not married, to take a bite at her apple. All these have nothing to do with morals but the law of nature.
S. Kadiri  


Sent: 07 September 2022 23:45

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Baba Kadiri, 

You have made your point - and insist on sticking to what you believe, come what may. 

You're not the kind of African President who would give in to threats of  "sanctions", boycotts, emotional blackmail, withdrawal of aid money, the indignity of being militarily escorted by INTERPOL to the ICC and possible castration or execution by firing squad if you do not obey Lucifer and his imperial demons. 

Cheers. 

Much as I hate hit-and-run arguments, it should be good to wrap this one up and bring it to an amicable close. 

Just two matters I'd like to squeeze in  - 

  1.  If Baba Kadiri were to be appointed the moral inspector-general / Minister of Justice of the Nigerian Federation  - including the twelve Northern Sharia states, what measures would he recommend in order to curb or turn the tide against the equal rights for LGBT fellow human beings whose main aim is also love?  Listen in to Jeff Beck's general plea:  "We must make the changes From the basic situation"

  1. Considering what sounds like an over-emphasis on polygamy, in the name of " equal rights", would Baba Kadiri be averse to the idea of polyandry - of course in the unbelieving sections of the Nigerian polity? 

After your Parthian yab to our Hon. Friend Kenneth, the leader of the opposition, to my own relief your reply to me - less than a furlong-long "diatribe" was an anti-climax; so, instead of reaching for aspirin, by the time I got to your last sentence, "Why can't men masturbate instead of paying women to allow them deposit their'' whatever, I had arrived at instant relief. Of course, nothing like the sort of cosmic orgasms that the Major-General's wife expects….

( BTW, I have an ex-Catholic friend who tells me that at the Catholic boarding school he attended - some of the nuns and priests terrorised them all day long with stories of hell,  with shorter versions of the kind of sermon we find in Chapter 3 section 2 of Joyce's A Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man  - he said that such was the anxiety that he felt about the threat that he was going to be sent to hell, that he couldn't help it, he had to masturbate regularly, four to five times a day, to get instant relief from the fear and the tension that was piling up inside him… 

Baba Kadiri, the sensational news headline that graced Bertrand Russel's obituary - I think that it was in the Times, was a light-hearted, not so sombre pun that " The Golden Mountain does not exist" – i-e. no longer existed. Isn't that the same kind of conundrum we are in today when you say that because words for homosexuality etc, did not exist in the Yoruba language means that such a way of life never existed, not even underground behind the scenes, disguised, euphemistically  - you know who creative language can be, to cover any exigencies. Back in the 60s,  the President of Liberia for example used to phone the Saro head of state to discuss some "football match" - when in fact they were arranging some big diamond deal… 

You also know that an explanation cannot always be substituted in lieu of proof! 

Did you read, as always the very readable Russell when it comes to his social and political deliberations  - aimed at a general public, this time his succinct  - no Big Grammar, "Marriage and Morals" some of which I'm sure you found agreeable and true to modern Yoruba cultural norms. I actually thought of you when I read the following, under "Chapter III: Patriarchal Systems" :

"As soon as the physiological fact of paternity is recognized, a quite new element enters into paternal feeling, an element which has led almost everywhere to the creation of patriarchal societies. As soon as a father recognizes that the child is, as the Bible says, his "seed", his sentiment towards the child is reinforced by two factors, the love of power and the desire to survive death. The achievements of a man's descendants are in a sense his achievements, and their life is a continuation of his life. Ambition no longer finds its termination at the grave, but can be indefinitely extended through the careers of descendants. Consider, for example, the satisfaction of Abraham when he is informed that his seed shall possess the land of Canaan. In a matrilineal society, family ambition would have to be confined to women, and as women do not do the fighting, such family ambition as they may have has less effect than that of men. One must suppose, therefore, that of fatherhood would make human competitive, more energetic, more hustling than it had been in the matrilineal stage. Apart from this effect, which is to some extent hypothetical, there was a new and all-important reason for insisting upon the virtue of wives. The purely instinctive element in jealousy is not nearly so strong as most moderns imagine. The extreme strength of jealousy in patriarchal societies is due to the fear of falsification of descent. This may be seen in the fact that a man who is tired of his wife and passionately devoted to his mistress will nevertheless be more jealous where his wife is concerned than when he finds a rival to the affections of his mistress."

Much food for thought in the introduction and in the preceding chapter

Chapter II: Matrilineal Societies

And all the other chapters which I think are relevant to some of the realities in Modern Nigeria, and  the rest of 21st Century Africa : 

Chapter IV Phallic Worship, Asceticism and Sin

Chapter V: Christian Ethics
Chapter VI: Romantic Love
Chapter VII: The Liberation of women
Chapter VIII: The Taboo on sex knowledge, n.1
Chapter IX: The place of love in human life, n.1
Chapter X: Marriage
Chapter XI: Prostitution  
Chapter XII: Trial Marriage
Chapter XIII: Family at the present day
Chapter XIV: The Family in Individual Psychology
Chapter XV: The family and the State
Chapter XVI: Divorce
Chapter XVII: Population
Chapter XVIII: Eugenics
Chapter XIX: Sex and Individual Well-being
Chapter XX: The Place of Sex among Human Values
Chapter XXI: Conclusion

For balance: Marriage and Morals in Islam

Lastly, to what category of wanton liars should Baba Kadiri want to assign those who propagate "The idea that African homosexuality was a colonial import is a myth"?



On Wednesday, 7 September 2022 at 20:32:17 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
​"How does Baba Kadiri feel about the piece of Civil Rights Legislation in the United States which forbids discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or sexuality," Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg asked? That question was actually answered as far back as 1964 by Malcolm X in his memorandum to the OAU African Heads of State meeting in Cairo on July 17, 1964. He wrote among other things, "Many of you have been led to believe that the much publicised, recently passed civil-rights bill is a sign that America is making a sincere effort to correct the injustices we have suffered there. This propaganda manoeuvre is part of her deceit and trickery to keep the African nations from condemning her racist practices before the United Nations. ..... The United States Supreme Court passed a law ten years ago (1954) making America's segregated school system illegal. But the federal government has yet to enforce the law even in the North. If the federal government cannot enforce the law of the highest court in the land when it comes to nothing but equal rights to education, how can anyone be so naive as to think all the additional laws brought into being by the civil rights bill will be enforced? These are nothing but tricks of the century's leading neo-colonialist power (p.76, Malcolm X Speaks)." And on p. 197, he said, "I'm the man you think you are. And if it doesn't take legislation to make you a man and get your rights recognised, don't even talk that legislative talk to me." Of course, Malcolm X was right because the English, the Germans, Italians, and all other European immigrants in the U.S., did not need Civil Rights Bill to become American citizens as African Americans born there. In practice, the Civil Rights Bill was a pretentious law granting African Americans citizenship's rights. That was why Civil Rights Bill or not, a seventeen-year-old black boy, Trayvon Martin, was shot dead by a white neighbourhood watchman, George Zimmerman, on February 26, 2012, because a black person was not supposed to be seen walking in that part of Florida except, as it is generally presumed, he/she is a criminal. Mistaken for a burglar, a Black Harvard Professor, Henry Louis Gates Jr. was in 2009 arrested and handcuffed by a white police corporal for trying to pry open the jammed front door of his home, even after the police had established that he was the owner of the house. As of date, African Americans are still parading the streets in the U.S. with placards stating BLACK LIVES MATTER. As of date, it is easier for mentally disturbed Whites in the U.S. to purchase automatic weapons than for Blacks to vote.

Concerning your hearsay that the Yoruba people originally came from Ancient Egypt; I will not be surprised if it were true. The Arabs began kidnapping and enslaving Blackman before Europeans joined them. Egypt is in Africa but anthropologically Arabs are actually not Africans. However, reading the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, Old and New Testament, I found that casting lots were practised in similar fashion as in the Yoruba Ifa divination. Casting lots as in Yoruba Ifa divinity are stated in Leviticus 16 : 8; Numbers 26 : 55; Joshua 18 : 6; 1st Samuel 14 : 42; Jonah 1 : 7; and Acts 4 : 23-26. Thus, if God had had any message or instruction for the Yoruba, He would have sent it through Orunmila the progenitor of Ifa and not through Moses. It is not unlikely that the Hebrews learned how to cast lots from the Yoruba before they were driven out of Egypt.

Shooting from both sides of his mouth, Baba Kadiri is saying that homophobia is an intrinsic part of the Yoruba cultural norm since such phenomena are an abomination in Yoruba Culture/Civilization and now exist as despicable accretions - Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg. 

I thought that Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg had grown beyond internet louts that are used to crediting people with false statements but he has now proved me wrong. At no time have I written or stated orally that 'homophobia is an intrinsic part of the Yoruba cultural norm since such phenomena are (such phenomenon is) an abomination in Yoruba Culture/Civilization and now exist as despicable accretions.' What I wrote was that Yoruba people, like all Nigeria's ethnic groups, had never practised homosexuality and therefore never had a name for it in any of the indigenous language. The term *homosexual* became known generally in Africa in 1990 when US scientists declared that HIV/AIDS was a homosexual disease in the U.S., and Europe but a heterosexual disease in Africa. At that time, the late Professor Olikoye Ransome-Kuti was Minister of Health in the military government of General Ibrahim Babangida. Refuting the existence of HIV/AIDS in Nigeria, the Minister of Health stated categorically that major health hazards in Nigeria were malaria, cholera and dysentery. Fearing that Nigerian men could imitate and import homosexual behaviours into Nigeria, and thereby spread the dreaded HIV/AIDS in the country, the military government of General Babangida promulgated Chapter 21 of Nigeria's Criminal Code 1990, titled "Offences Against Morality." Therein homosexual acts between men were illegal and might be punished by jail terms of up to 14 years. It was that chapter 21 of Nigeria's Criminal Code 1990, the National Assembly updated to include prohibition of same-sex marriage which President Jonathan signed into law in 2014.

If I admonish people not to use their hands to steal from people, that should not depict me as having phobia against thieves. And no normal person would tell me that those who use their hands to steal from other people are created like that and more absurdly tell me that stealing is normal because thieves are in every society. I have a very good command of Yoruba language which is why I am bold enough to assert that there has never been a word for homosexuality in Yoruba language because it was unknown/unpractised sexual behaviour. Premised on the etymology of African languages I now challenge Menahem Cornelius Hamelberg to tell me the equivalent indigenous African language words, preferably in Yoruba, for the English words, rape, homosexual, lesbian, zoophilia and prostitute. If these sexual behaviours had existed in pre-colonial Africa, there would have been indigenous names for them in our respective language. Rape (sexual) will translate into Yoruba as, A-J'ÒBÒ DÓ, meaning poking vagina by stealing (vagina burglar); homosexual will translate into Yoruba as ADÓ-FÙRÒ, meaning anus poker/fucker; lesbian will translate to A-PÓNBÒLÁ meaning vagina licker; zoophilia (bestiality) in Yoruba will translate to A-BÉ-ERANKÓ-SUN meaning animal's poker or fucker; and prostitute will translate into Yoruba as A-TÁ-ÒBÒ-JEUN meaning feeding on selling vagina. Since you claimed in your post that prostitution is said to be "the world's oldest profession," I want to know from you who declared the penetration of female vagina with a male's penis in exchange for money as a profession and why is shitting not a profession? Why can't men masturbate instead of paying women to allow them deposit their sperms into females' vagina?
S. Kadiri 



From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: 06 September 2022 14:43

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

It's the same kind of propaganda that characterises all these ideas about " The Noble Savage". It's the same kind of nostalgia  - the longing to return to some beautiful fantasy of a pristine, Edenic epoch which never existed that animates many kinds of religious fundamentalism too.

Baba Kadiri has been telling us ad nauseam in this forum, that the pre-colonial, pre-Missionary Christian and  Pre-Islamic Yorubaland was a veritable, primordial Garden of Eden ( without any subtle serpent of course - and he has told me personally that he doesn't buy into the story idea that Eve was made from Adam's rib) He has told us - as if indeed he was there and speaking from personal experience, that once upon a time before the evil missionary white man came and mucked up everything, there was no word for prostitute in the Yoruba language, for the simple reason that prostitution - said to be " the world's oldest profession" did not exist in Yorubaland. It could have existed in Mesopotamia or in Babylon, but not in Yorubaland. Ditto  - homosexuality, lesbianism, transgender, bestiality etc . There are- no words for such transgressions in the ancient Yoruba language because such abomination never existed and was never practised in Yorubaland. Why? He says this is because it's all contrary to human nature. Yoruba Human Nature

So how did Sodom and Gomorrah appear in the Hebrew Bible? Answer - that was not Yoruba human nature in action…

Shooting from both sides of his mouth, Baba Kadiri is saying that homophobia is an intrinsic part of the Yoruba Cultural norm since such phenomena are an abomination in Yoruba Culture/ Civilization and now exist as despicable accretions.

Speaking as a minor expert on the five schools of Islamic law with regard to Nikah, I believe that just as it should be difficult and even reprehensible - God forbid - to convert Baba Kadiri  to homosexuality, so it should be difficult to convert a natural born homosexual person to hetero sexuality to become a connoisseur of the feminine mystique

The next question is, how are we to imagine Baba Kadiri relates to Bertrand Russell's Marriage and Morals - penned circa 1929, long before the same-sex marriage revolution started gaining momentum in the West and in Western Dominions?

None of the above is frightening; we have yet to know whether or not Baba Kadiri endorses the death penalty 



On Tuesday, 6 September 2022 at 13:27:30 UTC+2 ovdepoju wrote:
I disagree with Kadiri's homophobia but identify with his critique of universalist  impositions from anywhere religion.

The fundamentalist understanding of the  Abrahamic religions present them as the last word on the mind of God.

The Hebrews said God chose them out of all others, giving them the right to steal others' lands as God's gift to them and even exterminate such populations down to the last human and non-human living  thing as commanded by God on at least one occasion.

The fundamentalist Christian view sees Jesus as God incarnate and as the only way to God, superseding the Hebrew understanding of revelation which Jesus developed in his own individualistic way and which his followers expanded upon.

The Islamic orientation understands Muhammed as the "Seal of the Prophets" the culmination of the prophetic tradition initiated with Abraham, possibly the only valid one in history, with Muhammed it's summit, beyond which there shall be no more.

Kadiri is arguing, in contrast to the exclusivist orientations within this family of religions, religions  arising from contigous geographical spaces within what one perspective now  calls the Middle East, religions representing variations on the Abrahamic inspiration, that if God is inclined to speak in ethnic terms, tailoring messages to particular peoples, as he is said to have done for the Hebrews and the Arabs, why could he not have done so for other peoples too?

Why should one buy into the ethnocentric self celebrations of various ethnicities who localise divine favour in centralising themselves?

Why could God not have spoken in Yoruba to Orunmila, for example?

Ogundiran puts it well in The Yoruba : A New History in stating people universalize their own localities, which Yoruba thought also does, seeking universal significance through the creativities emerging from it's own distinctive development, but as Soyinka puts it in A Credo of Being and Nothingness-one of his best though lesser known works and, in it's seven stanza poem the best short summation of Yoruba cosmology known to me-this unversalization does not operate through belief in superiority over other belief systems, it does not operate in terms of perceving others in terms of falsehood in the conviction that foundational truth must be limited by the narrow configurations of particular systems of thought, but seeks to identify and integrate within itself what is of value in other bodies of knowledge, hence various schools of thought, represented by devotion to various deities in Yoruba cosmology, are not conflicting but complementary, or discrete, devotees doing their own thing without conflict with devotees of other deities and even accommodating Christianity and Islam within it's armbit.

After all, are those others not new religions, with Jesus being born in Yorubaland as "Jewesu" a name later corrupted by the uininformed to the abbreviation 'Jesus" as described and suggested by an ese ifa, a literary work of the Yoruba origin Ifa system?

Is Islam not referenced by a particular Odu Ifa, forms of being representing the totality of existence?

"Seek understanding of the signposts of existence" as Soyinka puts it in that poem which I understand as a Soyinka created scripture of Yoruba origin Orisa spirituality and philosophy, an understanding involving the seeking of value within the diverse, integrating it within the wholeness that the students of Oduduwa and Obatala have been developing for centuries, but acknowledging that since no one knows or can know all, the fragments of the great dispersal from the primal radiation each represents a perspective of some validity into an unknowable totality, as Ulli Beier describes Olodumare in The Return of the Gods, suggested in the fragmentation of Obatala into the multiplicity that is the Orisa, the driving forces of existence, being a reconfiguration that can only partially be reconstituted in thought, as Orunmila tries to do in the gathering of the great one's sundered form in a calabash, a symbol of totality in Yoruba and African thought.

Yoruba spirituality and philosophy, at it's best, may therefore be seen as  centrifugal-projecting the universal significance of it's intrinsic nature, and centripetal, integrating within itself the varied insights of other schools of thought.

I began this response by trying to justify Kadiri's position through close attention to particular ideational developments, but was led thereby to developing a particular interpretation of the relationship between the local and the universal in Yoruba thought through the inspiration  of Ogundiran as his understanding  of Yoruba thought helps interpret Soyinka.

Great thanks for the stimulation, Cornelius and Kadiri.

Toyin

On Tue, Sep 6, 2022, 01:10 Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:

A straight question : 

How does Baba Kadiri feel about the piece of Civil Rights Legislation in the United States which forbids discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or sexuality?

With the greatest respect, I should like to take up a few issues with Baba Kadiri, the so-called African-Nigerian / "Nigerian African", and as a stickler for the particular, if he wanted to be even more specific, for absolute accuracy he could have described himself as a bonafide Yoruba Nigerian Chauvinist in counter-distinction from other Nigerians of a slightly different ethnic and possibly slightly different ethical variation concerning values and worldview when it comes to the more universal category known as mankind. 

Baba Kadiri would like us all to believe that his so-called ethical stand against gay rights is based on pre-colonial principles that have been intrinsic to natural law and Yoruba civilisation long before the advent of Judaism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and the consequent missionary Christianity, not to mention the introduction of Islam to his fatherland, the latter two aforementioned world religions accounting for some 180 million adherents in his post-colonial Nigeria. 

As he well knows, half of Nigeria's Yoruba people are Muslim and the other half are Christian even if traditional Yoruba religion is the background from which all Yoruba people emerge. I don't know whether it's history, speculation or mere gossip that the Yoruba people originally came from Ancient Egypt. I don't know how Baba Kadiri feels about this, but there's an awful lot of tittle-tattle in Acedemia.edu  that  "The Yoruba People Came from Egypt"

With all of the above in mind, I think that it's an extreme case of hubris for Baba Kadiri to go on repeating his position ad nausea that if Almighty God had wanted to get him on board then He should have addressed him directly in his mother tongue, from the very beginning. Has Baba Kadiri ever thought that maybe, the Almighty has a plan for all mankind? 

For starters, I should recommend "ISLAM - Religion, History, Civilisation" by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. The introductory paragraphs should whet your appetite and cause you to reconsider the antagonism and disdain  with which you dismiss the Messenger that is titled  "A mercy to Mankind" 

Leon Thomas: The Creator Has a Master Plan



On Monday, 5 September 2022 at 00:15:53 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
​As a Nigerian African, I have always believed that if there is one God that created this world and all human beings inside it with different languages, that Almighty God ought to have delivered His messages in all the languages He has created to each linguistic group, if the messages concern all His creations. Since I am neither a Hebrew nor an Arab, I do not commit blasphemy if I don't believe in Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Yeshua Hamashiach (alias Jesus Christ), Allah or Mohammed. Those religious deities never spoke my mother tongue and whatever they proclaimed that God had told them was for their own linguistic group and not for me or any other citizens of Black African nations. In view of the aforesaid, no leader of a government of any country has the right to pronounce death sentence on a person for religious sake as it was in the case of Salman Rushdie who was not even a citizen of Iran. Instead of defending his fundamental human rights to freedom of speech and expression, his unfortunate situation is being exploited to propagate for legal acceptance of sexual perversities in the world.

Derailing the discussion on Wednesday, August 24, 2022, Kenneth Harrow wrote, "I don't know how others on this list feel about gay rights. I believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. I have a lesbian granddaughter. I have gay friends - women, men trans; I know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement and all movements that assert the rights of Muslims, Jews, Christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions." Gay is a U.S. euphemism invented to name the homosexuals, that is to say, men who are sexually attracted to men, the so-called same-sex intercourse. Similarly, a woman who is sexually attracted to women is called a lesbian or a tribade. Why should homosexual rights be equated to the African American civil rights movement of the 1960s? In his speech titled, The Ballot or the Bullet, Malcolm X gave a gist of what civil rights movement was about. Hear him, "If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem. Those Hunkies that just got off the boat, they're already Americans; Polacks are already Americans; the Italian refugees are already Americans. Everything that came out of Europe, every blue-eyed thing, is already an American. And as long as you and I have been over here, we aren't Americans yet. ...//... Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now. They don't have to pass civil-rights legislation to make a Pollack an American (p.25-26, Malcolm X Speaks)." Of recent, I read in the newspapers that 48 States in the U.S., have enacted electoral laws that will prevent Blacks in particular to vote in elections. Although, an African American was president of the U.S., for eight years, it did not prevent the slaughter of Black Americans in the streets like rams, culminating in Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is demeaning to the entire Black race to reduce the segregation and confinement of African Americans to ghettos, denial of access to quality education and the right to vote in elections to the rights of homosexual to copulate freely with one another. Homosexuality is a self-preferred or a self-imposed behaviour because it is unnatural for two heterosexuals to give birth to a homosexual child unless one is talking of a deformed child.

Human beings are not self-pollinating like flowers and as such males and females have to engage in sexual intercourse in order to procreate. In case of assisted pregnancy, the ingredients for In-Vitro-Fertility (IVF) are collected from both a male and a female. Biologically and genetically, every child has a maternal and paternal origin and it cannot be denied that every child is a product of heterosexuality. Unlike animals, human beings don't copulate publicly but discreetly and whatever any grown-up male and female do with themselves inside a locked door is their business and not the concern or duty of anyone to approve or disapprove. Whether for recreation or for procreation, coitus is only natural and normal between a male and a female. The question that follows is what do the homosexuals do sexually that made Kenneth Harrow to elevate their acquired sexual practices to civil rights or fundamental human rights? In his article titled, The Clinical Approach to the Male Homosexual Patient, published in the Med Clinics of North America 1986 vol.70 : p.499-535; Dr William F. Owen Jr., MD, a physician in San Francisco, California, listed sexual behaviours practised by homosexuals of which few are worthy to recall here. (1) Anogenital insertion which is insertion of penis into a male partner's rectum/anus, the so-called anal intercourse. (2) Anogenital reception which is recipient of partner's penis into the rectum/anus. (3) Oro-genital insertion which is insertion of penis into partner's mouth. (4) Oro-genital reception, also called Fellatio, which is recipient of partner's penis into the mouth. (5) Ano-digital insertion which is insertion of finger into partner's rectum /anus. (6) Ano-digital reception which is recipient of partner's finger into the rectum/anus. (7) Ano-manual insertion which is insertion of hand/arm (fist) into partner's rectum/anus. (8) Ano-manual reception which is to receive partner's hand/arm (fist) into the rectum/anus. (9) Oro-anal insertion, also called anilingus, is insertion of tongue into partner's anus to lick it. And (10) Oro-anal reception which is receiving partner's licking tongue on the anus. Among his homosexual patients Dr William F, Owens found men who were afflicted with gonorrhoea of the throat, syphilis of the lip, gonococcal abscess of the rectum, and herpes of the anus after anal and oral sex. One does not need to be a certified religious fanatic to be horrified by what neo-liberal pass off as legitimate homosexual civil rights that must be respected. Anatomically, the anus is not constructed to receive things from below but for the exit of faecal matter, in addition for farting. Mouth too is anatomically constructed to eat food, drink and talk. Neither the mouth nor the anus is a sexual organ. Those are biological facts and not social construction.

In his 1989 book titled, THE MYTH OF HETEROSEXUAL AIDS - HOW A TRAGEDY HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY THE MEDIA AND PARTISAN POLITICS, Michael Fumento wrote about the danger of anal sexual intercourse as follows : The reason for the danger of anal sex in the era of AIDS is in part the difference between the tissue construction of the male urethra and rectum and the female vagina. While the vagina is constructed of tough plate-like cells that resists rupture and infectious agents, and are designed to withstand the motions of intercourse and childbirth, the urethra and rectum are constructed primarily of columnar cells which tear or rupture easily. This allows semen to enter the more readily accessible blood vessels of the rectum or conversely, allows blood from a ruptured rectum to seep into the urethra of the inserted partner in anal intercourse. ..... The vagina provides natural lubrication, whereas there is little in the anus. Anal douching, a practice many homosexuals engage in prior to anal intercourse, can remove what lubrication the anus has ... Non-lubrication not only increases the chance of ruptures but at the same time reduces the efficiency of the condom, which many have touted as the way to turn unsafe homosexual sex into safe sex. The condom has a considerably higher breakage rate during anal sex... (p.45-46). In a note on page 49, Fumento wrote that the homosexuals claim that the anus is not inferior to vagina as a receiver of the penis (anus = vagina). Therefore, according to the homosexuals, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. That anus is not equal to vagina one has to compare what happens when the anus or the vagina is penetrated with the penis.

"The homosexuals," Joan Shenton wrote, "inhaled poppers - amyl and butyl nitrites. This drug was regularly used to enhance sexual pleasure and in particular to help dilate the anal orifice and allow 'fisting' (brachioproctal intercourse in the aggressively promiscuous lifestyle .... The new-found sexual freedom that followed the gay liberation movement ... led some gay men into a fast track, high risk lifestyle, where DRUG-ASSISTED SEX became a necessary part of their daily life .... (p. xx, POSSITIVELY FALSE - EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS, 1998)." Concerning drug-assisted sex that enables homosexuals to sexually penetrate each other's anus with penis Professor Peter H. Duesberg wrote, "During the 1960s, male homosexuals discovered the aphrodisiac effects of nitrites. Receptive anal intercourse became less painful because the anal sphincter (muscle) would relax; therefore, receptive men used far more of the drug than did their inserting partners. Nitrites also helped maintain erections and intensified orgasm, and some users even claimed euphoric 'high' (p. 270, Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg)." In another book titled, AIDS : VIRUS or DRUG INDUCED, Peter H. Duesberg affirmed, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injections of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ... passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are relatively fragile, designed for excretory, not intrusive activity. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases, and many others (p. 177)." If anus were equal to vagina, childbirth would have been occurring through the anus and not through the vagina.

As if the greatest problem confronting Africa is the establishment of homosexual lifestyle, Kenneth Harrow has reproduced a Wikipedia list of African countries that have never criminalised homosexuality and those that have decriminalised it, including the one that has legalised same sex marriage and in addition to those countries that have enacted LGBT anti-discrimination laws. Of course, many African leaders were frightened by President Obama's threat of economic sanction against any African country that did not decriminalize homosexuality in 2014, although as of that time in the U.S., homosexuality was legal only in 17 out 50 U.S., States. ​www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
[https://cdn.vanguardngr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Obama-in-Chicago.jpg]<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Gay-Marriage Law: US threatens to sanction Nigeria<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Leading western countries piled pressure on the Federal government, yesterday, following President Goodluck Jonathan's signing of the Same-Sex Prohibition Act 2014. The latest country is the ...
www.vanguardngr.com
​I am not sure of other indigenous languages in Africa, but in my own mother tongue there is no word for homosexuality, lesbian, oral and anal sex or rape because they are never practised. As bad as we think African leaders are, none of them has ever behaved as President Bil Clinton who in the Oval Office area, thrusted a Cuban cigar into the vagina of Monica Lewinsky and licked it up. And when the blue gown of Monica Lewinsky stained with the sperm of President Clinton surfaced during his impeachment, he admitted inserting his penis into the mouth of Miss Lewinsky for active oral sex. When the economic and industrial development of the U.S., and Western Europe were at the same level as African countries are today, homosexuality was forbidden in their laws. So, why can't U.S., and her allied global ruler uplift Africa to the same level of economic and industrial development they are today before demanding that Africans should adopt their system of sexual perversities as a way of life?

In Africa, two or more women can agree to share a man as a husband, which is called polygamy. But polygamy is criminalized as bigamy in Europe and the U.S. A man who marries more than one wife in the U.S., will be guilty of bigamy and shall be punished by a fine of $500 and in addition to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years. I will like to know from Kenneth Harrow if the civil right of two women agreeing to marry the same man as their husband or a man marrying to two wives is less than that of homosexual (same-sex) marriage? If your answer is positive, why?
S. Kadiri



________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

from, wikipedia

Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Burkina_Faso>, Ivory Coast<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ivory_Coast>, Democratic Republic of the Congo<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo>, Djibouti<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Djibouti>, Equatorial Guinea<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Equatorial_Guinea>, Madagascar<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Madagascar>, Mali<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mali>, Niger<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Niger>, and Rwanda<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Rwanda>. It has been decriminalised in Angola<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Angola>, Botswana<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Botswana>, Cape Verde<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cape_Verde>, Gabon<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Gabon>, Guinea-Bissau<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Guinea-Bissau>, Lesotho<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Lesotho>, Mozambique<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mozambique>, São Tomé and Príncipe<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe>, the Seychelles<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Seychelles> and South Africa<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_South_Africa>. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-discrimination_law> exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.

the aarticle goes on to state alll the horrible ways gays are also punished/made illlegall etc in various africa states, the worst also including...northern nigeria. my point is simply that it is an ongoing struggle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/African_homosexuality_laws.svg/1200px-African_homosexuality_laws.svg.png]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
LGBT rights in Africa - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
en.wikipedia.org




kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading


"more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."

First reaction :

From a Muslim point of view, it's not a matter of what society approves, it's a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.

By "society", I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam

Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=the*First*Church*of*Satan*in*San*Francisco__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXrPJLgwP$> , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.

USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*signs*of*the*last*days__;KyUrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXicbUe1R$> !

Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Nation*of*Islam*on*LGBT__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXlF58q6F$>

I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…

The sentence that begins with "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there's a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.

And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sodom*and*Gomorrah__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXk1yYNSx$> - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=MECCA*Institute&ie=UTF-8__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs-xfmcQ$> would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.

Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jpost.com/international/article-715333__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXncN2SFd$>

There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with " O mankind<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Quran**A3A*O*mankind**A21&n__;KyUrKysl!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXmmVE_hF$>" , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Surah*Al-Hujurat*13__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXtyp34Ah$>:

"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."

Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXm5xfpon$> people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…

So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a "disease" because they were either born that way - fitra <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*fitra__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs7hUxeI$> - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?

Since it is not a "disease/ illness", the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work "today". The diagnosis " illness" was retracted in less than 24 hours.

I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear " go ahead and seduce her" I was on the brink of wanting to "convert" a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…

Islam's LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that's precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.

In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*in*Muslim*Nigeria__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsJp2IvP$>

From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: "Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable"<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Ayatollah*Khomeini*declared*transgender*surgical*operations*allowable__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXqmwN-xN$>


On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 01:58:45 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>

[https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AW3f0HMHNtMqEtxBd2qn3OSFew3d8pIcjIw8n9tnN0_5G_i3ffYNpBwsh1PXSs5Tf_QWZlgF8by4ZZ3Id4THP6Izruz8VLavQlkq0LM_jyb9dmnsSmHUDzPO9oHOpwmmokKEis9KCWFY_5jziFFu22DfR33rMXvwtLa0A2I3IMYKZEeLLKhobX6vnmvSkEABVImjV20jveSYLR4Qto44JfersGU=s0-d-e1-ft#https://hrc-prod-requests.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/files/images/blog/_1200x630_crop_center-center_none/Washington-DC-Mosque-Islam-1600x900.jpg]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Islam - Sunni and Shi'a<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
More than a billion Muslims inhabit this planet, and they inhabit geographic, linguistic and cultural spaces that are enormously diverse. As a result, their beliefs on issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people cannot be easily summarized.
www.hrc.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.hrc.org__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXjutPyTQ$>



kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.

I do not believe that any so-called "progressive Muslims" can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg's Footnote to Howl<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/54163/footnote-to-howl__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_CnvMcWU$> as one of their main scriptures.

On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sheikh*Yasser*Habib*views*on*homosexuality__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_I5Bpljd$>

As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what's written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rairfoundation.com/when-will-authorities-reveal-hadi-matars-collaborators-demand-justice-for-salman-rushdie-videos/__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_EdIigNe$>



On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.

i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.
for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.

i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.
i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.

my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.

ken




kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Still on the matter of censorship - let's move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam*and*gay*rights__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Y3d4nTP$>, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama's recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect " La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal's imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….

LGBT composers in classical music history<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*composers*in*classical*music*history__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dsCY24Q$>

LGBT Writers <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*writers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dxdmYRF$>

LGBT Philosophers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*Philosophers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6S0zmlI_$>

There's also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…

After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in " tread softly because you tread on my dreams<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=tread*softly*because*you*tread*on*my*dreams__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6fTdo5fJ$>" that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:

"Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink."

Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.

Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?"

Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them."

These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them

( Numbers 20: 8 - 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9948/jewish/Chapter-20.htm__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TwuScbb$>)

Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*churches__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Rjzkbjz$> and some synagogues<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*synagogues__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Tu5UrQE$>. For me, it's difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Obama*bows*to*Saudi*King__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TRKpQ2k$>, wouldn't dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to "legalise" LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation

That "Pride Sabbath<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Pride*Sabbath__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6SZ-5ALh$>" was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Gay*Rabbis&oq=Gay*Rabbis__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6ZpXM8xg$> and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul*on*homosexuality__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6R6OySF2$> if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what's going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, " I die daily". Jesus on the other hand has already said " Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!"

Senegal: Mbalax 2019 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Mbalax*2019__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6QkRiP3c$>







On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:

Dear Kenneth,

I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much "free-er" society - and that the women are a lot " free-er", perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.

But, that's very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Tijaniyya__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dMIx_LN$> or the Mourides<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Mourides__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6UtIXHm-$> ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama's 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=2013**A3A*Obama*visits*Senegal*2C*tells*them*to*legalise*homosexuality*and*lesbianism__;KyUrKyslKysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6RK8aA85$>. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Gor**Ae__;w6k!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YgT20Vs$> to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don't exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Amadou*Bamba__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6a6dQKTA$> and Cheikh Anta Diop<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Cheikh*Anta*Diop__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YO1tw48$> country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?

I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vUEx7emNnI__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6embfe_-$> ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Karmen*Gei.&newwindow=1&client=avast-a-1&tbm=vid&source=lnt&tbs=dur:l&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcnYKu7dz5AhXKhFwKHcVMCokQpwV6BAgBEBc&biw=1536&bih=750&dpr=1.25__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6euIMhgr$>, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?

Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)

The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzUfbHMoWE__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bNJJZii$>

Kora and N'goni Music<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DT2xHqUtCw__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bHlZD-P$>

BEST OF MBALAX 2020<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baIPdd7ouP0__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TlYxhLX$>


On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius
yes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).
the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.
the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.
the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken


kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Dear Kenneth,

It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://V.I.Ps__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6duHNasl$>

You must have seen them many times in Senegal.

Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie's is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen.

They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"

Perhaps, there's the same confusion about Jesus walking on water<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcpEdh5Po$> as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.

Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water*2C*was*Peter*dreaming*3F&n__;KysrJSsrKyU!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcgjSzfW4$>, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.

Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*walking*on*water__;KyUrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZctYvcwSo$>.

Another siddhi is levitation<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*levitation__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZchNUe0dl$>. There are many different siddhis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=The*Siddhis**A28*superpowers__;KyslKw!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcowBX_8N$>. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn't? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.

Preacherman also says that " Faith can move mountains" ( mountains of problems)

" And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the wate<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard*Cohen**A3A*And*Jesus*was*a*sailor*when*he*walked*upon*the*water__;KyslKysrKysrKysrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-Zcsc7E2JQ$>r" ( Leonard Cohen)

With e.g. "Jesus Christ Superstar " in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don't ever let them come back here.

Re - your footnote:

How does

Yambo Ouologuem : Bound to Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Yambo*Ouologuem**A3A*Bound*to*Violence__;KyslKysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcnzwvR5j$>

compare with

Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons<

On Tue, Sep 6, 2022, 01:10 Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:

A straight question : 

How does Baba Kadiri feel about the piece of Civil Rights Legislation in the United States which forbids discrimination on the grounds of race, religion or sexuality?

With the greatest respect, I should like to take up a few issues with Baba Kadiri, the so-called African-Nigerian / "Nigerian African", and as a stickler for the particular, if he wanted to be even more specific, for absolute accuracy he could have described himself as a bonafide Yoruba Nigerian Chauvinist in counter-distinction from other Nigerians of a slightly different ethnic and possibly slightly different ethical variation concerning values and worldview when it comes to the more universal category known as mankind. 

Baba Kadiri would like us all to believe that his so-called ethical stand against gay rights is based on pre-colonial principles that have been intrinsic to natural law and Yoruba civilisation long before the advent of Judaism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and the consequent missionary Christianity, not to mention the introduction of Islam to his fatherland, the latter two aforementioned world religions accounting for some 180 million adherents in his post-colonial Nigeria. 

As he well knows, half of Nigeria's Yoruba people are Muslim and the other half are Christian even if traditional Yoruba religion is the background from which all Yoruba people emerge. I don't know whether it's history, speculation or mere gossip that the Yoruba people originally came from Ancient Egypt. I don't know how Baba Kadiri feels about this, but there's an awful lot of tittle-tattle in Acedemia.edu  that  "The Yoruba People Came from Egypt"

With all of the above in mind, I think that it's an extreme case of hubris for Baba Kadiri to go on repeating his position ad nausea that if Almighty God had wanted to get him on board then He should have addressed him directly in his mother tongue, from the very beginning. Has Baba Kadiri ever thought that maybe, the Almighty has a plan for all mankind? 

For starters, I should recommend "ISLAM - Religion, History, Civilisation" by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. The introductory paragraphs should whet your appetite and cause you to reconsider the antagonism and disdain  with which you dismiss the Messenger that is titled  "A mercy to Mankind" 

Leon Thomas: The Creator Has a Master Plan



On Monday, 5 September 2022 at 00:15:53 UTC+2 ogunlakaiye wrote:
​As a Nigerian African, I have always believed that if there is one God that created this world and all human beings inside it with different languages, that Almighty God ought to have delivered His messages in all the languages He has created to each linguistic group, if the messages concern all His creations. Since I am neither a Hebrew nor an Arab, I do not commit blasphemy if I don't believe in Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Yeshua Hamashiach (alias Jesus Christ), Allah or Mohammed. Those religious deities never spoke my mother tongue and whatever they proclaimed that God had told them was for their own linguistic group and not for me or any other citizens of Black African nations. In view of the aforesaid, no leader of a government of any country has the right to pronounce death sentence on a person for religious sake as it was in the case of Salman Rushdie who was not even a citizen of Iran. Instead of defending his fundamental human rights to freedom of speech and expression, his unfortunate situation is being exploited to propagate for legal acceptance of sexual perversities in the world.

Derailing the discussion on Wednesday, August 24, 2022, Kenneth Harrow wrote, "I don't know how others on this list feel about gay rights. I believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. I have a lesbian granddaughter. I have gay friends - women, men trans; I know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement and all movements that assert the rights of Muslims, Jews, Christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions." Gay is a U.S. euphemism invented to name the homosexuals, that is to say, men who are sexually attracted to men, the so-called same-sex intercourse. Similarly, a woman who is sexually attracted to women is called a lesbian or a tribade. Why should homosexual rights be equated to the African American civil rights movement of the 1960s? In his speech titled, The Ballot or the Bullet, Malcolm X gave a gist of what civil rights movement was about. Hear him, "If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem. Those Hunkies that just got off the boat, they're already Americans; Polacks are already Americans; the Italian refugees are already Americans. Everything that came out of Europe, every blue-eyed thing, is already an American. And as long as you and I have been over here, we aren't Americans yet. ...//... Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now. They don't have to pass civil-rights legislation to make a Pollack an American (p.25-26, Malcolm X Speaks)." Of recent, I read in the newspapers that 48 States in the U.S., have enacted electoral laws that will prevent Blacks in particular to vote in elections. Although, an African American was president of the U.S., for eight years, it did not prevent the slaughter of Black Americans in the streets like rams, culminating in Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It is demeaning to the entire Black race to reduce the segregation and confinement of African Americans to ghettos, denial of access to quality education and the right to vote in elections to the rights of homosexual to copulate freely with one another. Homosexuality is a self-preferred or a self-imposed behaviour because it is unnatural for two heterosexuals to give birth to a homosexual child unless one is talking of a deformed child.

Human beings are not self-pollinating like flowers and as such males and females have to engage in sexual intercourse in order to procreate. In case of assisted pregnancy, the ingredients for In-Vitro-Fertility (IVF) are collected from both a male and a female. Biologically and genetically, every child has a maternal and paternal origin and it cannot be denied that every child is a product of heterosexuality. Unlike animals, human beings don't copulate publicly but discreetly and whatever any grown-up male and female do with themselves inside a locked door is their business and not the concern or duty of anyone to approve or disapprove. Whether for recreation or for procreation, coitus is only natural and normal between a male and a female. The question that follows is what do the homosexuals do sexually that made Kenneth Harrow to elevate their acquired sexual practices to civil rights or fundamental human rights? In his article titled, The Clinical Approach to the Male Homosexual Patient, published in the Med Clinics of North America 1986 vol.70 : p.499-535; Dr William F. Owen Jr., MD, a physician in San Francisco, California, listed sexual behaviours practised by homosexuals of which few are worthy to recall here. (1) Anogenital insertion which is insertion of penis into a male partner's rectum/anus, the so-called anal intercourse. (2) Anogenital reception which is recipient of partner's penis into the rectum/anus. (3) Oro-genital insertion which is insertion of penis into partner's mouth. (4) Oro-genital reception, also called Fellatio, which is recipient of partner's penis into the mouth. (5) Ano-digital insertion which is insertion of finger into partner's rectum /anus. (6) Ano-digital reception which is recipient of partner's finger into the rectum/anus. (7) Ano-manual insertion which is insertion of hand/arm (fist) into partner's rectum/anus. (8) Ano-manual reception which is to receive partner's hand/arm (fist) into the rectum/anus. (9) Oro-anal insertion, also called anilingus, is insertion of tongue into partner's anus to lick it. And (10) Oro-anal reception which is receiving partner's licking tongue on the anus. Among his homosexual patients Dr William F, Owens found men who were afflicted with gonorrhoea of the throat, syphilis of the lip, gonococcal abscess of the rectum, and herpes of the anus after anal and oral sex. One does not need to be a certified religious fanatic to be horrified by what neo-liberal pass off as legitimate homosexual civil rights that must be respected. Anatomically, the anus is not constructed to receive things from below but for the exit of faecal matter, in addition for farting. Mouth too is anatomically constructed to eat food, drink and talk. Neither the mouth nor the anus is a sexual organ. Those are biological facts and not social construction.

In his 1989 book titled, THE MYTH OF HETEROSEXUAL AIDS - HOW A TRAGEDY HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY THE MEDIA AND PARTISAN POLITICS, Michael Fumento wrote about the danger of anal sexual intercourse as follows : The reason for the danger of anal sex in the era of AIDS is in part the difference between the tissue construction of the male urethra and rectum and the female vagina. While the vagina is constructed of tough plate-like cells that resists rupture and infectious agents, and are designed to withstand the motions of intercourse and childbirth, the urethra and rectum are constructed primarily of columnar cells which tear or rupture easily. This allows semen to enter the more readily accessible blood vessels of the rectum or conversely, allows blood from a ruptured rectum to seep into the urethra of the inserted partner in anal intercourse. ..... The vagina provides natural lubrication, whereas there is little in the anus. Anal douching, a practice many homosexuals engage in prior to anal intercourse, can remove what lubrication the anus has ... Non-lubrication not only increases the chance of ruptures but at the same time reduces the efficiency of the condom, which many have touted as the way to turn unsafe homosexual sex into safe sex. The condom has a considerably higher breakage rate during anal sex... (p.45-46). In a note on page 49, Fumento wrote that the homosexuals claim that the anus is not inferior to vagina as a receiver of the penis (anus = vagina). Therefore, according to the homosexuals, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. That anus is not equal to vagina one has to compare what happens when the anus or the vagina is penetrated with the penis.

"The homosexuals," Joan Shenton wrote, "inhaled poppers - amyl and butyl nitrites. This drug was regularly used to enhance sexual pleasure and in particular to help dilate the anal orifice and allow 'fisting' (brachioproctal intercourse in the aggressively promiscuous lifestyle .... The new-found sexual freedom that followed the gay liberation movement ... led some gay men into a fast track, high risk lifestyle, where DRUG-ASSISTED SEX became a necessary part of their daily life .... (p. xx, POSSITIVELY FALSE - EXPOSING THE MYTHS AROUND HIV AND AIDS, 1998)." Concerning drug-assisted sex that enables homosexuals to sexually penetrate each other's anus with penis Professor Peter H. Duesberg wrote, "During the 1960s, male homosexuals discovered the aphrodisiac effects of nitrites. Receptive anal intercourse became less painful because the anal sphincter (muscle) would relax; therefore, receptive men used far more of the drug than did their inserting partners. Nitrites also helped maintain erections and intensified orgasm, and some users even claimed euphoric 'high' (p. 270, Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter H. Duesberg)." In another book titled, AIDS : VIRUS or DRUG INDUCED, Peter H. Duesberg affirmed, "Male homosexual relationships without anal intercourse or injections of drugs are not associated with AIDS; neither is lesbianism. AIDS began and prevailed among ... passive male, and sometimes female, recipients of anal intercourse. This is because the rectal mucosa and its supporting tissues are relatively fragile, designed for excretory, not intrusive activity. When the thin submucosa is eroded and blood vessels are damaged, the tissues and blood stream are opened to invasion by all the organisms of the faecal microflora, by the pathogens of all the sexually transmitted diseases, and many others (p. 177)." If anus were equal to vagina, childbirth would have been occurring through the anus and not through the vagina.

As if the greatest problem confronting Africa is the establishment of homosexual lifestyle, Kenneth Harrow has reproduced a Wikipedia list of African countries that have never criminalised homosexuality and those that have decriminalised it, including the one that has legalised same sex marriage and in addition to those countries that have enacted LGBT anti-discrimination laws. Of course, many African leaders were frightened by President Obama's threat of economic sanction against any African country that did not decriminalize homosexuality in 2014, although as of that time in the U.S., homosexuality was legal only in 17 out 50 U.S., States. ​www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
[https://cdn.vanguardngr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Obama-in-Chicago.jpg]<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Gay-Marriage Law: US threatens to sanction Nigeria<http://www.vanguardngr.com/2014/01/gay-marriage-law-us-threatens-sanction-nigeria/>
Leading western countries piled pressure on the Federal government, yesterday, following President Goodluck Jonathan's signing of the Same-Sex Prohibition Act 2014. The latest country is the ...
www.vanguardngr.com
​I am not sure of other indigenous languages in Africa, but in my own mother tongue there is no word for homosexuality, lesbian, oral and anal sex or rape because they are never practised. As bad as we think African leaders are, none of them has ever behaved as President Bil Clinton who in the Oval Office area, thrusted a Cuban cigar into the vagina of Monica Lewinsky and licked it up. And when the blue gown of Monica Lewinsky stained with the sperm of President Clinton surfaced during his impeachment, he admitted inserting his penis into the mouth of Miss Lewinsky for active oral sex. When the economic and industrial development of the U.S., and Western Europe were at the same level as African countries are today, homosexuality was forbidden in their laws. So, why can't U.S., and her allied global ruler uplift Africa to the same level of economic and industrial development they are today before demanding that Africans should adopt their system of sexual perversities as a way of life?

In Africa, two or more women can agree to share a man as a husband, which is called polygamy. But polygamy is criminalized as bigamy in Europe and the U.S. A man who marries more than one wife in the U.S., will be guilty of bigamy and shall be punished by a fine of $500 and in addition to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years. I will like to know from Kenneth Harrow if the civil right of two women agreeing to marry the same man as their husband or a man marrying to two wives is less than that of homosexual (same-sex) marriage? If your answer is positive, why?
S. Kadiri



________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: 26 August 2022 12:26
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

from, wikipedia

Homosexuality has never been criminalised in Benin, Burkina Faso<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Burkina_Faso>, Ivory Coast<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Ivory_Coast>, Democratic Republic of the Congo<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo>, Djibouti<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Djibouti>, Equatorial Guinea<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Equatorial_Guinea>, Madagascar<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Madagascar>, Mali<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mali>, Niger<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Niger>, and Rwanda<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Rwanda>. It has been decriminalised in Angola<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Angola>, Botswana<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Botswana>, Cape Verde<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cape_Verde>, Gabon<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Gabon>, Guinea-Bissau<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Guinea-Bissau>, Lesotho<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Lesotho>, Mozambique<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mozambique>, São Tomé and Príncipe<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_S%C3%A3o_Tom%C3%A9_and_Pr%C3%ADncipe>, the Seychelles<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Seychelles> and South Africa<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_South_Africa>. South Africa was the fifth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in November of 2006. LGBT anti-discrimination laws<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-discrimination_law> exist in seven African countries: Angola, Botswana, Cape Verde, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, and South Africa.

the aarticle goes on to state alll the horrible ways gays are also punished/made illlegall etc in various africa states, the worst also including...northern nigeria. my point is simply that it is an ongoing struggle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/African_homosexuality_laws.svg/1200px-African_homosexuality_laws.svg.png]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
LGBT rights in Africa - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa>
en.wikipedia.org




kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 9:45 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading


"more than half (52%) of American Muslims agreed that "society should approve of homosexuality."

First reaction :

From a Muslim point of view, it's not a matter of what society approves, it's a matter of what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala/ God approves.

By "society", I assume they mean American society not the worldwide community of Muslims known as the Ummah al-Islam

Everything is possible in the United States of America - the First Church of Satan in San Francisco <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=the*First*Church*of*Satan*in*San*Francisco__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXrPJLgwP$> , paedophile priests, hanky-panky with Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton's Cuban Cigar, in the Oval Office, in Washington DC.

USA: When so-called US-certified Muslim leaders start legally conducting same-sex weddings in Mosques in the USA, one can only conclude that this is definitively one of the many sure signs that we are living in the last days<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*signs*of*the*last*days__;KyUrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXicbUe1R$> !

Out of curiosity, I Googled this : Nation of Islam on LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Nation*of*Islam*on*LGBT__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXlF58q6F$>

I would say the efforts are commendable, if the work was carried out as a social service outside of a religious context, nothing to do with prayer, mosques, condemnation, sins, haram etc…and nothing with the falsisfication/s of faith, the message of Islam - for example, the Muslim does ghusl after sexual intercourse before doing his salat at home or entering a mosque to pray. The mosque too is a holy place…

The sentence that begins with "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West '' and all that follows in that trajectory is suspect - inevitably suspect of more uncle-tom-foolery by Islamic stooges who are being nicely brainwashed by their hosts in the interest of the Americanisation / coco-cola-i-zation of al-Islam. And of course, Professor Harrow would be the first standing in line to tell us about contextualisation, that wherever Islam goes, has gone, or went, Islam acquires or adapts to some local colour - so that there's a Senegalese Islam, and a Nigerian Islam even if both follow Maliki fiqh.

And if Islam were to have taken over Sodom and Gomorrah<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sodom*and*Gomorrah__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXk1yYNSx$> - a rather bizarre extreme case to be sure, something like the MECCA Institute<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=MECCA*Institute&ie=UTF-8__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs-xfmcQ$> would have miraculously popped up to grant some accommodation, to show some love, compromise, compassion and understanding - and to even to argue with the Merciful Almighty about their ultimate doom in that one-time incident according to the Holy Bible.

Re - The Americanisation of Islam. Try this for size when it comes to conspiracy theories: Mossad 'likely' behind Salman Rushdie stabbing, claims Denver professor<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jpost.com/international/article-715333__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXncN2SFd$>

There are many exhortations in the Quran which begin with " O mankind<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Quran**A3A*O*mankind**A21&n__;KyUrKysl!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXmmVE_hF$>" , emphasising the unity of humankind and of uttermost relevance here, Surah Al-Hujurat, ayat 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Surah*Al-Hujurat*13__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXtyp34Ah$>:

"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."

Whether we like it or not, It goes without saying, that the main reality that we have to contend with is that there are genuine LGBT<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXm5xfpon$> people throughout humanity - and if we are to believe in what the Quran says, these males and females were created by God and that includes all nations, races, tribes, sub-tribes, religiously speaking, the Animists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Idolaters, Jews, Monotheists, Pagans, Polytheists, and of course the various Muslim/ Islamic sections of humanity, as well as - from a - to z, the antisemites, those suffering from homophobia, islamophobia, and noxious racism…

So how does Islam and its various branches deal with the reality that circa 5% of the faithful are LGBT which is not a "disease" because they were either born that way - fitra <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam**A3A*fitra__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXs7hUxeI$> - or were/are being influenced by local/ global environment and other cultural factors?

Since it is not a "disease/ illness", the idea of corrective therapy/ deprogramming is out of the question. ( I remember that sometime in the early 1970s in Sweden an irresponsible someone had diagnosed homosexuality as an illness - the reaction was that on the following day, en masse gay people called in to report at their various work places to report that they were ill and could therefore not go to work "today". The diagnosis " illness" was retracted in less than 24 hours.

I think that I have reported to this forum how, once upon a time, as I was sitting on her bed beside her and the devil was whispering in my ear " go ahead and seduce her" I was on the brink of wanting to "convert" a certain Carol - an Afro-American sister who was a captain in the US army? But I remembered just in the nick of time, how she had verbally mishandled a buddy of mine Tommy Powell (circa 197 cm tall, from Oakland, California) just a few hours earlier…

Islam's LGBTQ people ought not to be ostracised - from mosques or communities and that's precisely what happens when they form/are constituted into separate special needs communities.

In Senegal and India are they not a part and parcel of their various Islamic communities ( Not getting same-sex married in mosques, of course)? Of more pressing concern: LGBT in Muslim Nigeria <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*in*Muslim*Nigeria__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsJp2IvP$>

From experience, one knows that one does not have to believe everything that turns up in print, so, for verification and clarity I had to Google what popped up in your link: "Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable"<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Ayatollah*Khomeini*declared*transgender*surgical*operations*allowable__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXqmwN-xN$>


On Thursday, 25 August 2022 at 01:58:45 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
a brief search for "muslims in support of gay rights" turned up this:
". However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality."
and this: "A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. "
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>

[https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AW3f0HMHNtMqEtxBd2qn3OSFew3d8pIcjIw8n9tnN0_5G_i3ffYNpBwsh1PXSs5Tf_QWZlgF8by4ZZ3Id4THP6Izruz8VLavQlkq0LM_jyb9dmnsSmHUDzPO9oHOpwmmokKEis9KCWFY_5jziFFu22DfR33rMXvwtLa0A2I3IMYKZEeLLKhobX6vnmvSkEABVImjV20jveSYLR4Qto44JfersGU=s0-d-e1-ft#https://hrc-prod-requests.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/files/images/blog/_1200x630_crop_center-center_none/Washington-DC-Mosque-Islam-1600x900.jpg]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Islam - Sunni and Shi'a<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXsQ-L8QD$>
More than a billion Muslims inhabit this planet, and they inhabit geographic, linguistic and cultural spaces that are enormously diverse. As a result, their beliefs on issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people cannot be easily summarized.
www.hrc.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.hrc.org__;!!HXCxUKc!yir3K99pJOxhghxs39YUlwt6AybWWtyIDKxmN6VWsY8h4y8Bx-1pNVHkuVLRfCNYMnZk9qXuG9AXkPspXjutPyTQ$>



kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 11:02 AM

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

All the points made by Kenneth Harrow could be taken seriously, sympathetically, without inflicting any harm on others or on the various societies, but when he says, that he has "no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this", I believe that that kind of wishful thinking/ daydreaming has to be taken with a nip of salt.

I do not believe that any so-called "progressive Muslims" can quote any Islamic scriptures to justify or exonerate homosexuality. Maybe, such odd fellows can quote neo-Islamic scriptures of their own concoction and call the new religions " Homosexualism", " Lesbianism" and "Transgenderism" and adopt Allen Ginsberg's Footnote to Howl<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/54163/footnote-to-howl__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_CnvMcWU$> as one of their main scriptures.

On the contrary, we are to expect extreme hostility, not least of all from the likes of Sheikh Yasser Habib who has his own tough scripture-based views on homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Sheikh*Yasser*Habib*views*on*homosexuality__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_I5Bpljd$>

As we ramble and rumble on about these matters we ought not to forget the main issue in this thread and what Kenneth has said so far seems to tally with what's written here about the attack on Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://rairfoundation.com/when-will-authorities-reveal-hadi-matars-collaborators-demand-justice-for-salman-rushdie-videos/__;!!HXCxUKc!1G9vY5-_MAO9opglPB09ERmLpgfnGAZ9AS18HIKKsVzxWAJK3NlPY-B3gHye8H7Cj7Qr-Yj7-RJDU8Rn_EdIigNe$>



On Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 16:21:53 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
i don't know how others on the list feel about gay rights. i believe they are as fundamental as any other rights to which people have claims. i have a lesbian granddaughter. i have gay friends-- women men trans; i know enough about their movement in the past 50 years to believe in it as a civil rights movement with the same basic goals as the civil rights movement, and all movements that assert the rights of muslims, jews, christians, and all people of faith, to be able to practice their religions.

i don't believe that right means censoring others. nor do i believe that the meaning of the words of any holy text can be interpreted in only one authorized way, or that any interpretation justifies abusing others because they are gay.
for instance, in the jewish bible there are horrible passages condemning gay practices. but in rabbinic judaism the texts get reread/reinterpreted, and in current judaism, outside ultraorthodox, gay rights are and people widely accepted--welcomed. christianity is also divided on it. i have no doubts progressive muslims can be found who also support gay rights and who can quote scripture to justify this.

i don't believe it is the right of the west to impose its own beliefs on africans. i don't believe that africans all think with one mind, so that you can say Senegalese are opposed to gay rights. some are opposed--perhaps most, although that is not clear. les hommes-femmes (goorgui-jenn)have been in senegal for centuries, especially in saint louis. i know there are senegalese who believe in gay rights; and i imagine there is not a single african country where there is not some degree of this struggle. i know south africa is probably exemplary in the world in its laws on gay rights.
i know there was a gay community, underground, in cameroon when we lived there in the 70s. i know it is a maajor movement in nigeria, kenya, and many other places.

my point is that it an issue of struggle in contemporary africa, and we have the right to align ourselves on either side and claim other africans are also engaged in this struggle.... it is not fixed or decided, or frozen. i would want to side with jo ramaka, a great filmmaker, in his right to make Karmen Gei, a great film, and to have senegalese people see the film and decide for themselves how they feel about it.

ken




kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2022 8:16 AM

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Still on the matter of censorship - let's move on to the censorship of advocacy e.g. the advocacy of gay rights which Barack Obama did in Goree, Senegal, his emphasis that all men are equal, not that some men and women are more equal than others, before the law, sort of ignoring the role that culture and deep-seated tradition play in this matter of gay rights. And of course, in Senegal, I daresay on the issue of Islam and gay rights<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Islam*and*gay*rights__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Y3d4nTP$>, the message of Islam trumps the message and recommendations of Barack Hussein Obama. The fact is, that Mr Obama's recommendations could not possibly be implemented overnight just because he believes himself to be the persuasive voice of justice and reason. The country would have to be prepared for the transition to the new reality over a period of time. The country would have to be educated to not merely tolerate or accept but also to respect " La Difference ''. The glorification of LGBT would not sit well with Senegal's imams, the various Sufi brotherhoods and the general laity. Right now, things are perfect, the way they think that they are supposed to be….

LGBT composers in classical music history<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*composers*in*classical*music*history__;KysrKys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dsCY24Q$>

LGBT Writers <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*writers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dxdmYRF$>

LGBT Philosophers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=LGBT*Philosophers__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6S0zmlI_$>

There's also medicine, science and technology, art, popular music, theatre, cinema, business, sports…

After hitting the send button to dispatch my last post, I realised that I could have opened a raw nerve and was treading on dangerous ground - as in " tread softly because you tread on my dreams<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=tread*softly*because*you*tread*on*my*dreams__;KysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6fTdo5fJ$>" that the mood should be more of - as the Lord commanded Moses - instead of which - no laughing matter, dear Moses HIT the rock - just as I hit the send button -the same lesson to be learned by all of us the angry ones:

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:

"Take the staff and assemble the congregation, you and your brother Aaron, and speak to the rock in their presence so that it will give forth its water. You shall bring forth water for them from the rock and give the congregation and their livestock to drink."

Moses took the staff from before the Lord as He had commanded him.

Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?"

Moses raised his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice when an abundance of water gushed forth, and the congregation and their livestock drank

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Since you did not have faith in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly to the Land which I have given them."

These are the waters of dispute [Mei Meribah] where the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was sanctified through them

( Numbers 20: 8 - 13<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9948/jewish/Chapter-20.htm__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TwuScbb$>)

Nowadays, same-sex marriages are being celebrated in some churches<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*churches__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Rjzkbjz$> and some synagogues<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Same*sex*marriages*being*celebrated*in*synagogues__;KysrKysr!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6Tu5UrQE$>. For me, it's difficult to envisage this happening in the world of al-Islam, in any mosque in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somailiaany days soon, even if Joe Biden or his predecessor Barack Obama were to fly over to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia to advocate the legalisation of LGBT. Can anyone here imagine Donald Trump having the temerity to fly over to Goree in Senegal to tell the people there to legalise it? Shit? Of course, Trump would never do that - and Obama, seen here bowing to the Saudi King<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Obama*bows*to*Saudi*King__;KysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TRKpQ2k$>, wouldn't dare to fly over to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Somalia to tell them to "legalise" LGBT. So why does he fly over to Senegal to deliver such a message? The reason. His love for a brother nation

That "Pride Sabbath<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Pride*Sabbath__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6SZ-5ALh$>" was celebrated in many places: should come as no surprise, since there are gay rabbis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=Gay*Rabbis&oq=Gay*Rabbis__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6ZpXM8xg$> and possibly gay rabbits too. Considering all that Paul has said about homosexuality<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul*on*homosexuality__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6R6OySF2$> if he were to resurrect and be with us right now to observe what's going on, he would probably experience a second death - as he himself has said, " I die daily". Jesus on the other hand has already said " Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone!"

Senegal: Mbalax 2019 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Mbalax*2019__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6QkRiP3c$>







On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 15:05:29 UTC+2 Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:

Dear Kenneth,

I have always thought that compared to many other Muslim places - e.g Afghanistan, Senegal is a relatively much "free-er" society - and that the women are a lot " free-er", perhaps, because the Wolof woman, just like the Kalabari woman, is not subjected to the controversial FGM.

But, that's very good news coming from Senegal, that the Tijanis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Tijaniyya__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6dMIx_LN$> or the Mourides<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Senegal**A3A*The*Mourides__;KyUrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6UtIXHm-$> ( maybe both?) took on the mantle of guardians and protectors of morality in Senegal, saw it as their religious duty to prevent the promotion/ dissemination of lesbian cinema in the country and that this happened before the Obama era. Some of my Senegalese brothers are still so pissed with apostle Obama's 2013 visit to Senegal, in which his main message was that Senegal should legalese homosexuality and lesbianism<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=2013**A3A*Obama*visits*Senegal*2C*tells*them*to*legalise*homosexuality*and*lesbianism__;KyUrKyslKysrKysrKw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6RK8aA85$>. Did he fly all the way from the White House in Washington D.C to Gorée<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Gor**Ae__;w6k!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YgT20Vs$> to deliver this low blow to the moral fabric of Senegalese Civilisation? Not that homosexuality and lesbianism don't exist on the quiet ( Baba Kadiri will probably say that the decadence was imported from France as part of their cultural assimilation policy ) but to legalise it, give it equal rights with the heterosexuality of our forefathers and mothers in Amadou Bamba <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Amadou*Bamba__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6a6dQKTA$> and Cheikh Anta Diop<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Cheikh*Anta*Diop__;Kys!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6YO1tw48$> country? The gumption. Who does the miscreant Barack Hussein Obama think that he really is? Was?

I have tracked the movie down : Karmen Geï <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vUEx7emNnI__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6embfe_-$> ) 1 hour and 22 minutes - will probably have to skip the boring and haram pornographic bits). Apparently, it caused quite a splash<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Karmen*Gei.&newwindow=1&client=avast-a-1&tbm=vid&source=lnt&tbs=dur:l&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcnYKu7dz5AhXKhFwKHcVMCokQpwV6BAgBEBc&biw=1536&bih=750&dpr=1.25__;Kw!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6euIMhgr$>, at the time. Fast forward, is there now an official censorship board in Senegal, and if so, could the film now pass the litmus test? Would it be banned in Tunisia? Nigeria?

Whilst in London earlier this month one of my close relatives said that she had attended a lesbian wedding the previous day ( a quite pagan ceremony) between a director of prison and one of the prison wardens there - as we discussed the matter, the brilliant lawyer among us said that the relationship could lead to a conflict of interests - possible - hypothetical scenarios with regard to taking disciplinary measures ( nepotism not being the order of the day when it comes to law enforcement in Merry England)

The Muslim Who Fought French Colonialism Through Non-Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzUfbHMoWE__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bNJJZii$>

Kora and N'goni Music<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DT2xHqUtCw__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6bHlZD-P$>

BEST OF MBALAX 2020<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baIPdd7ouP0__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6TlYxhLX$>


On Tuesday, 23 August 2022 at 09:28:50 UTC+2 Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear cornelius
yes, there is an african film, quite a great film, that was subject to religious censorship, and its showing was c losed down thanks to threats from either the tijanis or mourids, i forget who. it was awful, like all religious excesses, extremes and censoring. the film was jo ramaka's Karmen Gei. in the film,m karmen has a lesbian affair with the prison warden, a first in afr film (first in its actual depiction of their lovemaking).
the prison warden subsequently dies, and karmen attends the funeral and sings a mourid threnody.
the sacrilege was in singing that song in the film....or so they said. it was probably the lesbianism that set them off.
the theatre was threatened with being burnt down, so they cancelled the showing. i don't know if jo had to leave town till it died down. since then he's returned and lived in dakar on and off.
ken


kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839<tel:(517)%20803-8839>

har...@msu.edu

________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2022 6:37 PM

To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Muhammed's Koran and Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses: ​A Comparative Reading

Dear Kenneth,

It was a wonderful evening with Orchestra Baobab. Sat in the second row with the .V.I.Ps<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://V.I.Ps__;!!HXCxUKc!1SCU0Uab09w_jE2XiPoKSRkQsHm0LtDg5_OFoRwhiScyBhG0IZxUTh0OxsnHDOL0dKcLV_xwizgAp-Ve6duHNasl$>

You must have seen them many times in Senegal.

Obviously, this brothel business of Rushdie's is a fulfilment of these lines by Literature Nobel Laureate Dylan:

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen.

They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"

Perhaps, there's the same confusion about Jesus walking on water<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water__;Kysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcpEdh5Po$> as reported in the Gospels according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Mark.

Whereas some critics have pointed out that this was Peter, dreaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Jesus*walking*on*water*2C*was*Peter*dreaming*3F&n__;KysrJSsrKyU!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcgjSzfW4$>, preacher man insists that Jesus actually walked on water.

Some Hindus enumerate walking on water as a Siddhi that can be acquired by advanced yogis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*walking*on*water__;KyUrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZctYvcwSo$>.

Another siddhi is levitation<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Siddhi**A3A*levitation__;KyUr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZchNUe0dl$>. There are many different siddhis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=The*Siddhis**A28*superpowers__;KyslKw!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcowBX_8N$>. Maybe, unbeknownst to us, Rudi Guiliani has some secret siddhis that we have never heard about. How do we know that he hasn't? It could be an epistemological problem. Likewise, for all we know the miscreant Rushdie could be shuffering from demon-possession, the kind of demon that does his wudu with his urine and is in dire need of some exorcism.

Preacherman also says that " Faith can move mountains" ( mountains of problems)

" And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the wate<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard*Cohen**A3A*And*Jesus*was*a*sailor*when*he*walked*upon*the*water__;KyslKysrKysrKysrKys!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-Zcsc7E2JQ$>r" ( Leonard Cohen)

With e.g. "Jesus Christ Superstar " in mind, are there any Rushdie-like problems to be anticipated in e.g. African cinema? ( A death fatwa on the actors and the producer. Maybe blow up the whole theatre and the audience therein. Thy kingdom come , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Send them all to hell directly, with a one-way ticket. And don't ever let them come back here.

Re - your footnote:

How does

Yambo Ouologuem : Bound to Violence<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?q=Yambo*Ouologuem**A3A*Bound*to*Violence__;KyslKysr!!HXCxUKc!wPZ8lHDpucAN1GTTA4UooejbF-ULNaNbjVR565dpYX140QM8iE2mvJlQVU5RYZBdGE6HSdQf45-I6d-ZcnzwvR5j$>

compare with

Ayi Kwei Armah : Two Thousand Seasons<

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