Thursday, April 27, 2023

Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

i believe that althusser was basically right, that religion has gradually ceded to secularism with the ascension of modernity, that is, since the enlightenment. even in muslim societies there has been a gradual erosion of religious practice, although this is more pronounced and publicized in the west, especially in europe. i can attest to this with the small church in the village where we have spent the past 15 summers. now the priest comes no more than 2-3 times for the entire summer, and soon, people say, the church—which dates to the 11th century, will become a church no more. already it is more used for musical performances than for services, which are attended mostly by around 10 old women.

the jewish synagoges in the u.s. are undergoing a similar decline in membership and in people attending services.
there is spirituality in many forms, many wonderful forms as so beautifully celebrated by toyin adepoju on this list. but the practice of dogmatic or formalist cult worship is inevitably fading. consider china, or japan, to see that.
it has been replaced by other identitarian formulations, like national identity or ethnic or racial identities. maybe not so much class identities any more.
or other new identities that i don't know about, which arise from practitioners of tiktok or computer communities that have replaced other socialities.
if religion has become old-fashioned, will the attacks on religious adherents also become gradually dated? there is a rise of anti-semitism in the u.s., but i doubt it that would have occurred had israel, a nation, not afforded a link between the religion and the nation-state. similarly, the anti-muslim sentiments in the west cannot be dissociated from the rise of arab identity politics associated with middle eastern politics, with immigrant communities in europe, and with their militancy as in 9/11 attacks.  we see those attacks as front page headline stories, not aware of the decline in mosque attendance, in belief, really.

spirituality can be beautiful, as in sufi narratives and practices, in yogic breathing, in christian love and jewish hesed, loving-kindness or care for the world. it doesn't need formal cults that stone unbelievers into submission for its beauty, but the beauty can be tarnished or run out of town, as in the gulf states that are intolerant of sufi practices, or in israel which is becoming increasingly intolerant of any jewish sect that isn't authorized by the orthodox.

this is not a new story.
ana al-haq. a beautiful statement—or an excuse to execute the heterodox.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toyin Falola <toyin.falola53@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2023 12:07 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA
 

Ken:

I am worried about yet another issue: attacks on spirituality. I am not sure that I agree with the position that secularism can deal with many of the issues we face. How do we deal with void, consciousness, right and wrong, what I owe you and what you owe me as members of a world, defined as small or big.

Ukrainde disturbed me.

Sudan is now disturbing me.

What is in my spirit, my soul, my being that is disturbing me?

If I am not disturbed, what has converted me into a piece of rock?

TF

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:01 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

Hi toyin, we might speculate that certain cultures/societies are more prone to warfare than others. I am enough of a materialist to believe that the economic/material conditions favor warlike or more peaceful nations, communities.

I remember when i taught about charlemagne, how he and his forces went out each spring to conquer and pillage territories that were not under their control. The vikings were exactly the same. I believe some indigenous american tribes were warlike, others not, depending onhow they lived. Buffalo hunters vs gatherers. In africa it was the same: we didn't hear about hunter gatherers conquering and enslaving neighbors. 

The conquistadores set out to dominate trade and acquire gold and silver, long before settlers came. The same, too, in africa.  What was there about those economies and peoples that led to their conquest and brutality?

a thesis on this point came out in Guns, Germs, and Steel that posited how various states became militant vs the peaceful ones, depending on how their economies were organized.

nowadays we seem to resolve all questions around identity: ice people vs sun people, black white jewish muslim christian european african indian muslim hindu buddhist communist capitalist etc, all burned into our skin and souls, as if people were who they were not by choices and construction of being/values, but by innate qualities. we make jokes about ourselves or them as if their noses bespoke their souls, and even celebrations of diversity or hybridity miss the point that it is difference (différance) that is being constructed, not innately separate people who are intermingling. bhabha made this point: it was often missed by those who didn't understand his use of deconstruction.

 

our age is too militant, too prone to settle relations using guns instead of words.

profit for the gunmakers; debasement of the word makers.

we need more Maitres de la parole, more mouthpieces for negotiation and harmony instead of recriminations blood and violence. more griots. more baba maals. more music, more poetry, more openness, more interest in others, more tolerance! i just finished reading mohamed mbougar saar's De purs hommes, a book on the rise of homophobia in senegal.  he is crying out for tolerance; museveni's ears are blocked, and his answer to difference is the death penalty.

 

ken

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toyin Falola <toyinfalola@austin.utexas.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2023 7:34:26 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

 

Ken:

Global politics, for centuries, has been built around wars and violence to create pathways to exploitation and domination. Too many examples to remind us, including the death estimated at over 10 million of the native Indian population to resettle Europeans in the Americas.

We will always be attacked until the world itself is terminated by the forces that created the planets, as in when the life of the sun ends. You and I seek global peace, but it requires a global flow that will connect the majority of people who will de-emphasize identities forced upon them or which they voluntarily choose. If I see myself as a Muslim, I already have millions of enemies, from India to Australia, without having done anything. An Indian minister at the highest level of government once told me that "Muslims are not human beings!"

 

TF

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 6:08 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

It is true that sweden is not so far from ukraine; russia right around the corner. We are all implicated. China sees this war as a way to reshift the world order in its favor. But we are all part of the world, not just nationals. We're all hurt, sooner or later, by the warfare in ukraine. It seems obvious there; germany already with 500,000 refugees and the u.s. also with many. 

That logic however, also applies to sudan. We are all touched by its war, sooner or later. Perhaps there ought to be one rule to which we might agree. Wars are never just, never good for all of us, not even for the winners. 

But what are we to do when we are attacked? If allowing the aggressor, no matter what, then goodbye to all the european jews when hitler expanded his rule; goodbye to all the hereros when germany colonized; goodbye to all the native peoples when the conquistadors arrived. We want to resist; and yet the wars seem to offer the worst of solutions. 

How to escape that paradox, rewrite the paradigm? We need all the smart toyin heads to come in here….

Ken

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 4:15:26 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

 

 

Re- " that seems obvious" - that Zelensky " wouldn't have the support of his people simply to call a halt to their military defense and yield territory."

 

Reminds me of this clip from Tuesday's New York Times briefing:" But he ( Joe Biden ) must also answer for rapid inflation and the chaotic U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan after 20 years of war."

 

Ukraine,  of course,  is not Afghanistan or Iraq, Vietnam, North Korea, Chechnya, Georgia, Belarus, Taiwan, Old Texas ( formerly a part of Mexico) or Biafra for that matter. 

 

Wouldn't a more pragmatic Zelensky have the support of his people ( those in and out of the country)  in order to save lives, to negotiate for peace - as China's President Xi Jinping has most probably been advising him, especially should the on-coming Ukrainian spring offensive that Ukraine & NATO Allies have been bragging about proves to be horribly ineffective, since in spite of all the new weapons being supplied to Ukraine, "large arms shipments have now arrived in Ukraine. These include German-made Leopard 2 tanks, British Challenger tanks, the Patriot air defense system and American mine clearance vehicles. Soon also the Swedish artillery system Archer, which is considered by many to be the best in the world'',  everything could still go so horribly wrong and Ukraine could suffer further painful losses of manpower on the battlefield not to mention further bombardment and destruction of their critical infrastructure 

 

If Joe Lauria's "Leaks Spelling the End for Ukraine" is anything to go by then Ukraine's victory on the battlefield is not simply just around the corner.

 

The alternative to peace negotiations could be heroic Ukraine fighting" to the last man"  at which prospect  - among those who are not hungry for that kind of martyrdom it should be logical that Ukraine's military would overthrow Zelensky and sue for peace since a Masada type ending/ denouement is probably not on their minds at the moment or in the near future.

 

What is most worrying  are these reports :

 

 Zaporozhye official terms constant Ukrainian attacks on nuke plant premises as 'terrorism'

 

On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 18:59:26 UTC+2 Harrow, Kenneth wrote:

hi cornelius et al

after having lost hundreds of thousands? of soldiers and civilians defending their country and its integrity/autonomy, zelensky doesn't have the power/wouldn't have the support of his people simply to call a halt to their military defense and yield territory. that seems obvious.

however, wars can't go on forever. at some point he would have to feel equally forced to yield, perhaps if his allies, like france, say, pressured him by threatening to limit or withdraw their support. at that point, russia might decide to continue their aggression and seek total conquest, unless they too feel enough heat to yield.

messy, but if enough players applied pressure, it would have to work. how would china play into this? they might decide weakening the west is in their interest, and pressure russia to continue, purchasing russian oil and supplying them with arms.

russia has its allies, like iran, north korea, and china. whereas nato and the u.s. are   portrayed as active partners in this conflict, that is an exaggeration. they provide necessary arms, but not soldiers. in all wars—including the bianfran war—we've seen similar situations, with britain vs france arming opposing sides. there is still a difference between supporting one side and actually sending soldiers.it isn't simply a proxy war: it is a real war over territory, with an antagonist trying to conquer its neighbor. that is clear enough to me. nato is not at war with russia, ukraine is.

some might wish russia to win. that would be terrible, in my view

ken

 

 

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 4:25 PM


To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

 

 

"Bottom line in ukraine: both putin and zelensky should compromise on their goals, let some of ukrainiana territory go to russia, and end the war." ( Kenneth Harrow) 

 

So, why don't they?

 

As in

 

"Ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony 

Side by side on my piano keyboard, oh Lord, why don't we?"

 

Shouldn't we all be telling Mr. Biden that would be a good way of saving lives ( pikuach nefesh) ? 

Long before the commencement of Russia's military operation there was this conspiracy theory making the rounds, maybe, largely fuelled and funded  by cynicism - something that your President doesn't want to hear about :  His son Hunter Biden's special connections with Ukraine

 

There's also this New York Times Story : What Joe Biden Actually Did in Ukraine...

It's difficult to envisage the combined forces of Uncle Sam + NATO +EU +The Vatican wresting Crimea from Russia, Crimea the fait accompli being of such critical importance to Russia's Black Sea fleet ( nuclear-tipped submarines etc)

 

Secondly, and here they must be thinking of  the status of the Swedish island Götland should Sweden join NATO  -  and when we consider all the joint exercises so far, at this stage Sweden is all but in NATO already 

 

 Russia needs an outlet / access to the Baltic Sea.

 

This means that if you're talking about "compromise" that aspect of what for Russia is of paramount strategic importance has to be part of the Joe Biden & CO's consideration 

 

I had a 15 min discussion with three Russians this afternoon ( Jehovah's witnesses), I met them outside the Grocery store. I told them that I deeply sympathise with Russia, the WARSAW pact dissolved, NATO expanding to Russia's doorstep. Uncle Sam could not and up to this day would not tolerate Russian Missiles in Cuba but think it's OK to have American/ NATO Missiles everywhere...

 

Bottom Line: The referred me to Daniel Chapter 11 

 

Jehovah's Witnesses : Daniel Chapter 11


" Jehovah's Witnesses identify Russia and its allies as the King of the North in the time of the end"

On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 18:35:30 UTC+2 Harrow, Kenneth wrote:

The more this war goes on, the more wagner's interactions in africa are revealed, the more i find their authoritarian state an intolerable menace.

Everything sachs can say about american covert operations, which we on the left always opposed, doesn't change that fact.

The problem is that we have to retain our ability to frame a reasonable critique of china (just say ouighars, or tianamen sq) or any other state—be it african or western—and not let go of our judgments. 

I imagine many states, rulers, had historical times when we supported them. Habyarimana was good, for a while… 

Don't think i can really say that about mobuto. 

Even nyerere had his oppressive side when it came to the forced collectives. 

And so on.

Right now, the only good thing one could say about putin is that he opposes western hegemony. That's also like saying, hitler opposed american domination.

So what? He was still a monster, and so is putin 

Biden has his flaws; america has its flaws; they are not monstrous now. To the contrary, i would vote for biden if he ran again.

 

Bottom line in ukraine: both putin and zelensky should compromise on their goals, let some of ukrainiana territory go to russia, and end the war. That will happen eventually, and meanwhile people are being killed as ukraine continues to resist russian hegemonical domination.

I don't know how else to think about this.

Ken

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 2:12:09 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

 

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/a06b2fbd-88eb-4897-b8c9-a70b2d02d2b6n%40googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/dac90979-35cc-42e4-991a-4f310a96f419n%40googlegroups.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/SN7PR12MB8436E448B0CE49C14B76E5FFDA6A9%40SN7PR12MB8436.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/PH0PR06MB9004193045A93CDE417496BCF86A9%40PH0PR06MB9004.namprd06.prod.outlook.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/SN7PR12MB84368E5349D944B9B409B66EDA6A9%40SN7PR12MB8436.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DM6PR11MB3356EF0637AB1F4309A51A3AF46A9%40DM6PR11MB3356.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.
Posted by at

No comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)
 
Vida de bombeiro Recipes Informatica Humor Jokes Mensagens Curiosity Saude Video Games Car Blog Animals Diario das Mensagens Eletronica Rei Jesus News Noticias da TV Artesanato Esportes Noticias Atuais Games Pets Career Religion Recreation Business Education Autos Academics Style Television Programming Motosport Humor News The Games Home Downs World News Internet Car Design Entertaimment Celebrities 1001 Games Doctor Pets Net Downs World Enter Jesus Variedade Mensagensr Android Rub Letras Dialogue cosmetics Genexus Car net Só Humor Curiosity Gifs Medical Female American Health Madeira Designer PPS Divertidas Estate Travel Estate Writing Computer Matilde Ocultos Matilde futebolcomnoticias girassol lettheworldturn topdigitalnet Bem amado enjohnny produceideas foodasticos cronicasdoimaginario downloadsdegraca compactandoletras newcuriosidades blogdoarmario arrozinhoii sonasol halfbakedtaters make-it-plain amatha