Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

hi cornelius et al

after having lost hundreds of thousands? of soldiers and civilians defending their country and its integrity/autonomy, zelensky doesn't have the power/wouldn't have the support of his people simply to call a halt to their military defense and yield territory. that seems obvious.

however, wars can't go on forever. at some point he would have to feel equally forced to yield, perhaps if his allies, like france, say, pressured him by threatening to limit or withdraw their support. at that point, russia might decide to continue their aggression and seek total conquest, unless they too feel enough heat to yield.

messy, but if enough players applied pressure, it would have to work. how would china play into this? they might decide weakening the west is in their interest, and pressure russia to continue, purchasing russian oil and supplying them with arms.

russia has its allies, like iran, north korea, and china. whereas nato and the u.s. are   portrayed as active partners in this conflict, that is an exaggeration. they provide necessary arms, but not soldiers. in all wars—including the bianfran war—we've seen similar situations, with britain vs france arming opposing sides. there is still a difference between supporting one side and actually sending soldiers.it isn't simply a proxy war: it is a real war over territory, with an antagonist trying to conquer its neighbor. that is clear enough to me. nato is not at war with russia, ukraine is.

some might wish russia to win. that would be terrible, in my view

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 4:25 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

 

"Bottom line in ukraine: both putin and zelensky should compromise on their goals, let some of ukrainiana territory go to russia, and end the war." ( Kenneth Harrow) 

So, why don't they?

As in

"Ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony 

Side by side on my piano keyboard, oh Lord, why don't we?"

Shouldn't we all be telling Mr. Biden that would be a good way of saving lives ( pikuach nefesh) ? 

The Military-Industrial Complex is making a lot of money on the Ukraine War

Long before the commencement of Russia's military operation there was this conspiracy theory making the rounds, maybe, largely fuelled and funded  by cynicism - something that your President doesn't want to hear about :  His son Hunter Biden's special connections with Ukraine

There's also this New York Times Story : What Joe Biden Actually Did in Ukraine...

The maps speak for themselves… 

It's difficult to envisage the combined forces of Uncle Sam + NATO +EU +The Vatican wresting Crimea from Russia, Crimea the fait accompli being of such critical importance to Russia's Black Sea fleet ( nuclear-tipped submarines etc)

Secondly, and here they must be thinking of  the status of the Swedish island Götland should Sweden join NATO  -  and when we consider all the joint exercises so far, at this stage Sweden is all but in NATO already 

 Russia needs an outlet / access to the Baltic Sea.

This means that if you're talking about "compromise" that aspect of what for Russia is of paramount strategic importance has to be part of the Joe Biden & CO's consideration 

I had a 15 min discussion with three Russians this afternoon ( Jehovah's witnesses), I met them outside the Grocery store. I told them that I deeply sympathise with Russia, the WARSAW pact dissolved, NATO expanding to Russia's doorstep. Uncle Sam could not and up to this day would not tolerate Russian Missiles in Cuba but think it's OK to have American/ NATO Missiles everywhere...

Bottom Line: The referred me to Daniel Chapter 11 

Jehovah's Witnesses : Daniel Chapter 11

" Jehovah's Witnesses identify Russia and its allies as the King of the North in the time of the end"

On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 18:35:30 UTC+2 Harrow, Kenneth wrote:

The more this war goes on, the more wagner's interactions in africa are revealed, the more i find their authoritarian state an intolerable menace.

Everything sachs can say about american covert operations, which we on the left always opposed, doesn't change that fact.

The problem is that we have to retain our ability to frame a reasonable critique of china (just say ouighars, or tianamen sq) or any other state—be it african or western—and not let go of our judgments. 

I imagine many states, rulers, had historical times when we supported them. Habyarimana was good, for a while… 

Don't think i can really say that about mobuto. 

Even nyerere had his oppressive side when it came to the forced collectives. 

And so on.

Right now, the only good thing one could say about putin is that he opposes western hegemony. That's also like saying, hitler opposed american domination.

So what? He was still a monster, and so is putin 

Biden has his flaws; america has its flaws; they are not monstrous now. To the contrary, i would vote for biden if he ran again.

Bottom line in ukraine: both putin and zelensky should compromise on their goals, let some of ukrainiana territory go to russia, and end the war. That will happen eventually, and meanwhile people are being killed as ukraine continues to resist russian hegemonical domination.

I don't know how else to think about this.

Ken

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From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 2:12:09 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

 

Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA

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