Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 4:15:26 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA
Re- " that seems obvious" - that Zelensky " wouldn't have the support of his people simply to call a halt to their military defense and yield territory."
Reminds me of this clip from Tuesday's New York Times briefing:" But he ( Joe Biden ) must also answer for rapid inflation and the chaotic U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan after 20 years of war."
Ukraine, of course, is not Afghanistan or Iraq, Vietnam, North Korea, Chechnya, Georgia, Belarus, Taiwan, Old Texas ( formerly a part of Mexico) or Biafra for that matter.
Wouldn't a more pragmatic Zelensky have the support of his people ( those in and out of the country) in order to save lives, to negotiate for peace - as China's President Xi Jinping has most probably been advising him, especially should the on-coming Ukrainian spring offensive that Ukraine & NATO Allies have been bragging about proves to be horribly ineffective, since in spite of all the new weapons being supplied to Ukraine, "large arms shipments have now arrived in Ukraine. These include German-made Leopard 2 tanks, British Challenger tanks, the Patriot air defense system and American mine clearance vehicles. Soon also the Swedish artillery system Archer, which is considered by many to be the best in the world'', everything could still go so horribly wrong and Ukraine could suffer further painful losses of manpower on the battlefield not to mention further bombardment and destruction of their critical infrastructure
If Joe Lauria's "Leaks Spelling the End for Ukraine" is anything to go by then Ukraine's victory on the battlefield is not simply just around the corner.
The alternative to peace negotiations could be heroic Ukraine fighting" to the last man" at which prospect - among those who are not hungry for that kind of martyrdom it should be logical that Ukraine's military would overthrow Zelensky and sue for peace since a Masada type ending/ denouement is probably not on their minds at the moment or in the near future.
What is most worrying are these reports :
Zaporozhye official terms constant Ukrainian attacks on nuke plant premises as 'terrorism'
hi cornelius et alafter having lost hundreds of thousands? of soldiers and civilians defending their country and its integrity/autonomy, zelensky doesn't have the power/wouldn't have the support of his people simply to call a halt to their military defense and yield territory. that seems obvious.
however, wars can't go on forever. at some point he would have to feel equally forced to yield, perhaps if his allies, like france, say, pressured him by threatening to limit or withdraw their support. at that point, russia might decide to continue their aggression and seek total conquest, unless they too feel enough heat to yield.messy, but if enough players applied pressure, it would have to work. how would china play into this? they might decide weakening the west is in their interest, and pressure russia to continue, purchasing russian oil and supplying them with arms.russia has its allies, like iran, north korea, and china. whereas nato and the u.s. are portrayed as active partners in this conflict, that is an exaggeration. they provide necessary arms, but not soldiers. in all wars—including the bianfran war—we've seen similar situations, with britain vs france arming opposing sides. there is still a difference between supporting one side and actually sending soldiers.it isn't simply a proxy war: it is a real war over territory, with an antagonist trying to conquer its neighbor. that is clear enough to me. nato is not at war with russia, ukraine is.
some might wish russia to win. that would be terrible, in my viewken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 4:25 PMSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA
"Bottom line in ukraine: both putin and zelensky should compromise on their goals, let some of ukrainiana territory go to russia, and end the war." ( Kenneth Harrow)
So, why don't they?
As in
"Ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano keyboard, oh Lord, why don't we?"
Shouldn't we all be telling Mr. Biden that would be a good way of saving lives ( pikuach nefesh) ?
Long before the commencement of Russia's military operation there was this conspiracy theory making the rounds, maybe, largely fuelled and funded by cynicism - something that your President doesn't want to hear about : His son Hunter Biden's special connections with Ukraine
There's also this New York Times Story : What Joe Biden Actually Did in Ukraine...
It's difficult to envisage the combined forces of Uncle Sam + NATO +EU +The Vatican wresting Crimea from Russia, Crimea the fait accompli being of such critical importance to Russia's Black Sea fleet ( nuclear-tipped submarines etc)
Secondly, and here they must be thinking of the status of the Swedish island Götland should Sweden join NATO - and when we consider all the joint exercises so far, at this stage Sweden is all but in NATO already
Russia needs an outlet / access to the Baltic Sea.
This means that if you're talking about "compromise" that aspect of what for Russia is of paramount strategic importance has to be part of the Joe Biden & CO's consideration
I had a 15 min discussion with three Russians this afternoon ( Jehovah's witnesses), I met them outside the Grocery store. I told them that I deeply sympathise with Russia, the WARSAW pact dissolved, NATO expanding to Russia's doorstep. Uncle Sam could not and up to this day would not tolerate Russian Missiles in Cuba but think it's OK to have American/ NATO Missiles everywhere...
Bottom Line: The referred me to Daniel Chapter 11
Jehovah's Witnesses : Daniel Chapter 11
" Jehovah's Witnesses identify Russia and its allies as the King of the North in the time of the end"
--On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 18:35:30 UTC+2 Harrow, Kenneth wrote:
The more this war goes on, the more wagner's interactions in africa are revealed, the more i find their authoritarian state an intolerable menace.Everything sachs can say about american covert operations, which we on the left always opposed, doesn't change that fact.The problem is that we have to retain our ability to frame a reasonable critique of china (just say ouighars, or tianamen sq) or any other state—be it african or western—and not let go of our judgments.I imagine many states, rulers, had historical times when we supported them. Habyarimana was good, for a while…Don't think i can really say that about mobuto.Even nyerere had his oppressive side when it came to the forced collectives.And so on.Right now, the only good thing one could say about putin is that he opposes western hegemony. That's also like saying, hitler opposed american domination.So what? He was still a monster, and so is putinBiden has his flaws; america has its flaws; they are not monstrous now. To the contrary, i would vote for biden if he ran again.
Bottom line in ukraine: both putin and zelensky should compromise on their goals, let some of ukrainiana territory go to russia, and end the war. That will happen eventually, and meanwhile people are being killed as ukraine continues to resist russian hegemonical domination.I don't know how else to think about this.Ken
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From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 2:12:09 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Jeffrey Sachs - Horrible Clash Between Russia And The USA--
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