these speculations are endless, and i have had, i guess, a bellyful of them.
when i last went to senegal i had absorbed a full plate of
globalization theory in which we could see and understand africa's
difficult situation b/c of uneven power structures that governed
economic exchanges. like the movie bamako. african states seemed to
be not in charge of their economies.
when i put the question to people working in senegal i got more mixed
answers, including some who argued that the state still had a large
degree of control over the resources that flowed in, that things like
usaid could set conditions, but only very partially. and the
ministries did much to control the flow of aid and the economy. on
the other hand, the imf loans had come with conditions that imposed
very very tight strictures on the govt budget, completely regulating
education expenditures, in crazy ways, although wade's govt has
managed to make it worse.
i have no idea what to think of all this. corruption, yes, but how
much, and what effect? control over the economy? it seems to vary
from country to country.
i had only one very strong reaction, which grew with the time i spent
there, and in every other country i visited. there is far too much
dependence on outside sources, be they aid or ngo or anything else.
too many signs of the generosity of other countries, which means,
senegal or cameroon or nigerian, even, had enjoyed the beneficial
gifts of others, i.e., were standing, as sembene said in guelwaar,
with the hand out saying thank you, or else were sending her children
abroad--an enormous braindrain.
i hated that, and came to agree with sembene that this had to end.
at the same time, my friend who worked in e senegal, where there is
nothing nothing nothing, we can't stop any way for the people there
to get food or medicine, without condemning them to death.
we can talk all we want: in each case, the people who live in the
villages must decide on their needs and what should be done, and it
is difficult when the govt has little to provide them, and sometimes
little incentive, as in the casamance region.
i don't really want to read an article called "hopeless africa." i am
already skeptical that the author is really sensitive to the human
side of this issue. and when i get to know the issues more closely,
as in east congo, i realize that the ills that the people there
suffer from are generated by conditions beyond their control--arms
trade for resources. don't talk to me about china there, or zimbawean
generals or malaysian mining traders, they are beyond evil; and they
work hand in glove with lots of european, eastern europeans,
israelis, you name it.
ken
At 09:20 PM 7/24/2010, you wrote:
>Ken,
>
>I don't know... If there are votes on the streets of my village,
>China would win hands down. My mother wants relief badly. Africa
>confounds and I must say I will soon have to stop reading and/or
>viewing anything about Africa; it is making me sick. Just read a
>piece in the Economist's archives called helpfully, Hopeless Africa
>(2000). You read that and you want to lay down and die.
>
>But then why are things the way they are? Why do people persist in
>seeing Africa this way? If we believe that racism is the only
>reason, then we are trying to solve an algebraic equation with
>several variables missing. I think perhaps we must establish certain
>facts and then seek honest conclusions. I do admire the passion and
>intellect with which many people on this forum talk about the
>African condition. But I must say that there are all these issues in
>the room and we are avoiding confronting them because the answers
>may frighten us. The issues remain. I think that this generation of
>thinkers should move from Achebe and Edward Said's groundbreaking
>approaches to one that actually also asks the questions that I keep
>talking about: Why are things the way they are? Why do they persist
>in seeing us as the other?
>
>The solutions to our issues are counter-intuitive, that is my
>prediction. We can't see what will save us. We can see that all is
>not well, that perhaps we are dying. Conversations that appear to be
>leading to uncomfortable conclusions are hurriedly shut down with
>impatient waves of the hand. I think we should have these
>conversations because many of us are just too curious to listen to hand waves.
>
>I have been re-aquainting myself with the Vietnam war, the Buddhist
>riots, the self immolations, JFK, Johnson, Ho Chi Minh, Ngo Dinh
>Diem, etc, etc. Just blown away by America's display of ignorance,
>arrogance and blind imperialism. And taken by Ho Chi Minh's
>leadership, talk about A Man of the People. His ascetic lifestyle
>and dedication to the truly dispossessed. The Vietnamese ultimately
>ignored the name calling and chose their path. I truly believe that
>with the right orientation Africa's leaders are capable of
>discerning for themselves what will be good or bad for Africa. I
>realize that our track record has not been all that bad. But we are
>really living witnesses to a fast moving evolution. Many people have
>been caught in its wake, but hope should eventually spring from all
>of this mess. I really believe that China is in a great position,
>more than any Western nation, to work with us in providing basic
>infrastructure to our beleaguered continent. I really do.
>
>We can have a conversation about the benefits of free market
>democracy vs communism, etc. In Nigeria, democracy and the fight for
>power is really confined to the intellectual and political class
>with various factions of the people used as proxies for the
>resulting battles. The conversations belong there. What we have,
>this demonstration of crase (apologies Fela) is merely mimicry. We
>are not interested in it. I am happy to join you in these
>discussions, but first we need to talk about what freedom means. I
>don't believe I am free. Not here in Babylon. Ask Arizona.
>
>- Ikhide
>
>ps
>
>I would like to see China do to the bukateria what it did to the
>plastic calabash. Mass produce them. In America , LOL
>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu>
>Sender: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 20:10:10
>To: <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
>Reply-To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - China Bashing & Foreign
>Investments
> in Africa
>
>hi paul
>well, i have to say you now are striking notes with which i am mostly
>in agreement.
>i can't help questioning propositions, and surely there was a mix in
>the motives of westerners, a mix of people, hell, even me, i am
>"westerner" who has taught for some years in africa....
>still, taking the broad historical view, as you are doing, of course
>you are right. i know best the french interventions in africa's
>history; i know of the really egregious broad patterns of belgian and
>then portuguese engagements; all of it. some of the motives of
>individuals paint one picture; but on the overall relations of power
>and exploitation, you are right.
>
>but china? i have very poor impressions of china's records on
>business and yes human rights, labor rights, workers' rights, freedom
>of the press. maybe that doesn't matter as much to you, but propping
>up the sudanese regime during the massacres of darfur, come on, how
>can we shut our eyes at that?? you say, let africans decide about
>china's investments. again, come on; you are talking about the govts
>of drc, sudan, guinea, zimbabwe, etc, who are deciding. not the
>african people.
>if there were votes on the street in dakar, china would lose.
>but i admit i don't know really, basically, if it will prove good for
>africa or not. that's why i put it out as a question; i don't see
>answers yet, certainly not in the way you've put it. but i hope it
>will spur african economies, and not simply enrich the dominant classes again.
>lastly, it is ridiculous to exclude "westerners" from forming
>judgments on this question. you are right to condemn the power
>relations; but when you extend it to all the people, to everyone,
>well, there is nothing left to say, not just for me, but for many who
>might well qualify as best informed and best intentioned on this or
>that issue. that is ridiculous; we just have lost, for instance,
>basil davidson. shall we not read his books? if you have read this far, why?
>ken
>
>
>
>At 04:16 AM 7/24/2010, you wrote:
> >Ken,
> >
> >Western nations in my eyes, are identical to unapologetic and
> >unrepentant Nazis, such Nazis despite the horrors of Holocaust, Nazis
> >who then pretend to advise Jews and while insisting, that they the
> >Nazis are MERELY after the best interests of Jews who now want to deal
> >with non-Nazis, Arabs, lets say!
> >
> >Westerners through slavery, colonialism, apartheid, neocolonialism,
> >Cold War geopolitics, direct interventions-manipulations, have in
> >plethora of ways perpetrated atrocities, horrors and brutalities upon
> >Africans... after 600 years of this most egregious and abusive and
> >lopsided "relationship" or force "marriage" China, without atrocious
> >track record, China is the new suitor of African nations, and
> >westerners, jealous and green with envy, seek, in their "infinite"
> >wisdom, to lord it over Africans AGAIN through lies and sundry
> >shenanigans, and then subvert Chinese forays into Africa. China may be
> >no angel, BUT, western nations are proven devils regarding Africa and
> >there is a lot of unsavory track record and pungent-putrid historical
> >facts behind the feelings of Africans regarding western nations.
> >
> >We are tired of being taken advantage of by westerners... we are
> >entitled to new suitors
> >
> >Where were westerners when China sent more than 40,000 doctors to
> >African nations? Where were westerners when China signed $29 billion
> >dollars bilateral and multilateral agreements this year with Africans?
> >
> >AND, if Chinese money is good for the American economy, Chinese
> >investment is surely good for Africa, sans western platitudes,
> >pretentious, hypocritical-double-speak Human Rights, Good Governance,
> >Democracy, Rule of Law, Due Process etc
> >
> >Let the competition begin and let Africans be the judge as to who are
> >our authentic-genuine friends and partners... Why do Africans need
> >self-serving and self-interested westerners to articulate African best
> >interest? History is my witness regarding Africa's long suffering in
> >the hands of western nations. Westerners should leave Africans to make
> >"imperfect" judgment in connection with China etc
> >
> >Western nations is pot, calling China, kettle, black. Please!
> >
> >
> >Paul I. Adujie
> >646-355-7166
> >New York, United States
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Jul 23, 1:10 pm, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
> > > is it investment? what is the difference between investment and what
> > > patrick bond calls looting, in Looting Africa? who is profiting from
> > > these investments? who is being ripped off?
> > > when timber is harvested, where does it go to be processed, before
> > > being purchased abroad? the primary processor now of timber,
> > > including especially illegal timber, is china. in 2005, when bond
> > > wrote his book, he cited www.globaltimber.org.uk, that 50% of all
> > > timber exported to china was illegal. anyone who has seen the flow of
> > > trucks carting logs out of the forests would regard this with horror.
> > > anyone who knows the atrocious conditions of mining in much of e
> > > congo would regard more unregulated "investments" there with horror.
> > > anyone who believes the people of congo will benefit from it are
> > > naive. bond cites ben shiller as claiming that china has purchased up
> > > to 75% of sudan's ivory. in ethiopia china built great housing
> > > blocks--ultimately taken over by the military
> > > go ahead and vilify me or the west all you want; go ahead and compare
> > > china with other places; none of that changes the reality that the
> > > champion of unregulated global neoliberal capitalism, china, is
> > > responsible for having exploited resources and labor as only the most
> > > ugly of capitalists have done.
> > > it is a smokescreen to invoke the ills of the west, my origins, or
> > > anything else, other than china's interests and operations. maybe
> > > they are great. maybe they are not. why this enthusiasm for embracing
> > > what appears to be a regime willing to bolster the worst regimes
> > > imaginable in the name of profit and cash.
> > > there is mostly one kind of investment that matters: that which
> > > enables a country to develop its own infrastructure: when japanese
> > > invested in automaking in korea, the koreans insisted on the transfer
> > > of technology, and ultimately were able to develop their own auto
> > > industry. when nigeria starting making volkswagons, there was no
> > > transfer of technology.
> > > is china making possible the positive growth of africa, or has it
> > > found a way to make deals with autocratic states which benefit china
> > > and the autocrats with whom they deal?
> > > i am not an apologist for the west in posing these questions: no one
> > > would be stronger in attacking western imperialism in africa. but
> > > this defense of china, without any attempt to actually examine what
> > > they are doing, and who benefits, does nothing but raise my
> > > suspicions about its true effects, not to mention its apologists.
> > > ken
> > >
> > > At 05:07 PM 7/23/2010, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >Chief Ikhide, thank you for your elegant presentation up there!
> > >
> > > >America and Europe (western nations) and the good Professor Ken Harrow
> > > >are oxymoronic and hypocritical in the stridency against China!
> > >
> > > >It is their time tested patterns of obfuscations and permanent double
> > > >standards!
> > > >We are all familiar with their couching purely economic competitions
> > > >in gobbledygook euphemisms and flowery and embellished terminologies,
> > > >such Human Rights, Democracy, Good governance and other high ideals
> > > >which they never practice when they deal Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt,
> > > >or as when they were in bed with Saide Barre of Somalia and Mobutu
> > > >Sese Sekor of the Congo, or as when the provided succor and lubricants
> > > >for the atrocious apartheid minority regime in South Africa!
> > >
> > > >My brother President Obama went to China, the same nation under
> > > >discussion here, and President Obama did not say a word about Human
> > > >Rights, the Rule of Law, Due Process and Democracy to the Chinese as
> > > >he did in Accra on July 11, 2009. African nations should be allowed to
> > > >select friends and business partners, without the "father" and
> > > >"mother" knows best of America and Europe and our good friend here,
> > > >Ken Harrow, it is just harrowing to read his excoriations of China,
> > > >China invested (signed agreements to the tune of) $29 billion dollars
> > > >in Africa this year... Can Mr. Harrow say the same of America and
> > > >Europe) a.k.a western nations?
> > >
> > > >I am simply tired of this Jesus Christ complex as exemplified by Mr.
> > > >Harrow, only outsiders, westerners in particular, know what is best
> > > >for us Africans? Haba!
> > >
> > > >Yeah, give me democracy, give me investment as well!
> > >
> > > >Paul I. Adujie
> > > >646-355-7166begin_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > 646-355-7166 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > >New York, United States
> > >
> > > >On Jul 22, 5:29 pm, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > ikhide
> > > > > i am afraid that because china isn't europe people think its
> > > > > investments in africa will somehow work better for africa, that they
> > > > > need to be measured against europe.
> > > > > no one disputes the terrible relations europe, the west, created with
> > > > > africa, the terrible things done, the exploitation before and after
> > > > > independence.
> > > > > no one on the left praises a world order dominated by the west.
> > > > > however, what is it that we are opposed to? what are the forms of
> > > > > exploitation that we oppose? please don't simply accept china's
> > > > > investments as automatically beneficial because they are investments
> > > > > or non-european. we can condemn european interventions, and also be
> > > > > cautious about the price being paid for chinese investment.
> > > > > i have heard very little to make me confident that china will do
> > > > > anything good for "africa" with its investments: it will enrich the
> > > > > powerful who control the economies, who control the mines in e congo,
> > > > > and it will permit the dynamics of exploitation to continue, perhaps
> > > > > to worsen, as there will be no control on the powerful rulers or
> > > > > figures who are selling off the resources.
> > > > > if this is incorrect, let me be shown the evidence.
> > > > > i couldn't care less if china "invests" in africa more than france or
> > > > > england or the u.s. i care that the very fact that it, and malaysia
> > > > > and india are finding mines and oil to invest in will facilitate the
> > > > > worst excesses of abuse.
> > > > > who is buying the tin--casserite--in e congo now? malaysia. where is
> > > > > it passing through? rwanda. what are the conditions of the mining and
> > > > > selling of casserite? some legal, most a complete nightmare that has
> > > > > accounted for around 3-4 million deaths in the e congo since 1996.
> > > > > who is a major investor in the mines now, everywhere in africa? guess
> > > > > who, china.
> > > > > who cares????
> > > > > there is a simple question that i can't answer but want economists on
> > > > > the list to answer: who stands to benefit from chinese investments?
> > > > > what are the conditions of the investments, and who benefits?
> > > > > what is the price for the investments?? who will pay in the long run?
> > > > > ken
> > >
> > > > > At 09:35 PM 7/22/2010, you wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >"let me see if i understand this correctly: since china did not
> > > > > >colonize africa, it is ok if it invests in any govt project in
> > > > > >africa, invests in guinea the day after the stadium massacre, since
> > > > > >business and human rights should have no relationship. invests in
> > > > > >sudanese oil, regardless of what genocide that makes possible
> > > > > >i think hitler would love that logic'
> > >
> > > > > >- Ken Harrow
> > > > > >Well, Ken, perhaps the Cold War has truly run its course and we are
> > > > > >the better for it. Egbe belu, ugo belu, "Let the kite perch and let
> > > > > >the eagle perch too. If one says no to other, let his wing break..."
> > > > > >Not sure why you are so irritated by the prospect of China expanding
> > > > > >into Africa (I mean what are our options in this age?) Sounds like
> > > > > >you have a beef with China getting a piece of the action. But then,
> > > > > >despite what many people think, Africa is rich; there is enough for
> > > > > >all. And we truly need the investment. So much needs to be done and
> > > > > >I personally welcome China's investment. A lot of work needs to be
> > > > > >done, we need to build roads, bridges, utilities, safety and
> > > > > >security infrastructure... I am not afraid of China. I am worried
> > > > > >about our leaders giving away the store yet again. But then, that is
> > > > > >where we all come in. We have got to keep pushing for transparency
> > > > > >in these relationships. I am keeping an open mind...
> > >
> > > > > >On a comical note, as a little boy growing up in Nigeria, I (and my
> > > > > >fellow little boys and little girls) was a beneficiary of the Cold
> > > > > >War. China actively courted us. We got free copies of the Little Red
> > > > > >Book extolling China's communist manifesto, etc, etc and they always
> > > > > >sent us glossy hagiographies er magazines of Chairman Mao leading
> > > > > >the Red Army to victory. The Chinese girls were so pretty in
> > > > > >uniform, LOL. I so admired Chairman Mao and looked forward to being
> > > > > >like him someday. We even organized "marches" in his honor ;-)))
> > > > > >Many years later, I was to learn from imperialist newspapers that
> > > > > >the man hated to take baths. I regret that I did not know that about
> > > > > >him when I was young. I would have asked him to adopt me. You see,
> > > > > >like most of my friends at the time, I hated to take baths ;-)))))
> > >
> > > > > >Be well. If you are this irritated by China, what are you going to
> > > > > >do to me when you find that I may be leading a Walmart delegation to
> > > > > >Abuja soon to have em bilateral talks with my good friend Chief Dr.
> > > > > >Goodluck Jonathan... After which I lead a MCDonalds delegation to
> > > > > >see Babangida... We have got to sell those burgers ;-)
> > >
> > > > > >- Ikhide
> > >
> > > > > >--
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> > > > > >of Texas at Austin.
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> > > > > Kenneth W. Harrow
> > > > > Distinguished Professor of English
> > > > > Michigan State University
> > > > > har...@msu.edu
> > > > >517 803-8839begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 517
> > 803-8839 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > > > fax 517 353 3755
> > >
> > > >--
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> > >
> > > Kenneth W. Harrow
> > > Distinguished Professor of English
> > > Michigan State University
> > > har...@msu.edu517
> > 803-8839begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 517
> > 803-8839 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
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> >
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>Kenneth W. Harrow
>Distinguished Professor of English
>Michigan State University
>harrow@msu.edu
>517 803-8839
>fax 517 353 3755
>
>--
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Michigan State University
harrow@msu.edu
517 803-8839
fax 517 353 3755
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