---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lil Joe <liljoe.radical@gmail.com>
Date: 17 November 2010 00:47
Subject: [Mwananchi] Re: THE NECESSITY OF STUDYING HISTORY:THE PLACE OF CARTHAGE IN AFRICAN TECHNOLOGICAL AND MILITARY HISTORY
To: Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com
Carthaginian army and navy had previously been defeated by the Roman
army and navy.
Lil Joe
On 11/16/10, Patricia <paanderson2003@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Toyin,
> An interesting article, you are right, we need to study history and some
> geography also. I`ve been to Carthage whilst on a visit to Tunisia, the
> Roman remains were very interesting, one place I do recall was a Roman
> amphitheatre, magnificent. My husband worked in Libya for a number of years
> and he visited many similar sites to those in Tunisia.
> I wasn`t aware of the history of ship building either, again a study of the
> history is always useful.
> As to Africans and ship building, there is a great history of building Dhows
> off the coast of Mombasa and Zanzibar, I saw some of these magnificent
> vessels at the old port in Mombasa, also in Zanzibar.
> Patricia.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com, toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@...> wrote:
>>
>> I had thought Africans had never built ships.Then I saw this on the
>> Wikipedia article on Carthage, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage> a
>> civilization that was in North Africa,in present day Tunisa,centuries
>> before
>> its eventual domination by Arabs:
>>
>> "The navy of Carthage was one of the largest in the
>> Mediterranean<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean>,
>> using serial production <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_production>
>> to
>> maintain high numbers at moderate cost. The sailors and
>> marines<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marines>of the Carthaginian navy
>> were predominantly recruited from the
>> Punic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic> citizenry, unlike the
>> multi-national allied and mercenary
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary>troops of the Carthaginian
>> armies. The navy offered a stable profession and
>> financial security for its sailors. This helped to contribute to the
>> city's
>> political stability, since the unemployed, debt ridden poor in other
>> cities
>> were frequently inclined to support revolutionary leaders in the hope of
>> improving their own
>> lot.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage#cite_note-9>The
>> reputation of her skilled sailors implies that there was in peacetime
>> a
>> training of oarsmen and coxswains, giving their navy a cutting edge in
>> naval
>> matters. The trade of Carthaginian merchantmen was by land across the
>> Sahara
>> and especially by sea throughout the Mediterranean and far into the
>> Atlantic
>> to the tin-rich islands of Britain and to West Africa. There is evidence
>> that at least one Punic expedition under
>> Hanno<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator>sailed along
>> the West African coast to regions south of the Tropic
>> of Cancer <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropic_of_Cancer>, describing how
>> the sun was in the north at noon".
>>
>> I was even more struck to read that the Romans upgraded their warships
>> through the adaptation of Carthaginian ships:
>>
>> "Polybius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius> wrote in the sixth book
>> of
>> his History that the Carthaginians were "more exercised in maritime
>> affairs
>> than any other
>> people."[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage#cite_note-10>Their
>> navy included some 300 to 350 warships. The Romans, who had little
>> experience in naval warfare prior to the First Punic
>> War<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Punic_War>,
>> managed to finally defeat Carthage with a combination of reverse
>> engineering
>> captured Carthaginian ships, recruitment of experienced
>> Greek<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>sailors from the ranks of
>> its conquered cities, the unorthodox
>> corvus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvus_%28weapon%29> device, and
>> their
>> superior numbers in marines and rowers. In the Third Punic
>> War<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War>Polybius describes a
>> tactical innovation of the Carthaginians, augmenting
>> their few triremes with small vessels that carried hooks (to attack the
>> oars) and fire (to attack the hulls). With this new combination, they were
>> able to stand their ground against the superior Roman numbers for a whole
>> day."
>>
>> The article describes the culture and records of Carthage as destroyed by
>> Rome at the end of the Third Punic War.
>>
>> The effect of this Roman victory on global civilization is so described:
>> "Over the course of the next century, these three major conflicts between
>> Rome and Carthage would determine the course of Western civilization. The
>> wars included a Carthaginian invasion led by
>> Hannibal<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Barca>,
>> which nearly prevented the rise of the Roman Empire. Eventual victory by
>> Rome was a turning point which meant that the civilization of the ancient
>> Mediterranean would pass to the modern world via Southern Europe instead
>> of
>> North Africa".
>>
>> It is vital to cross-check Wikipedia with more definitive scholarly data.
>> I
>> expect this information is accurate,though, on account of the fame of
>> Carthage in its wars against Rome,in which it is described as occupying
>> Italy for some years.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Toyin
>>
>
>
>
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From: Lil Joe <liljoe.radical@gmail.com>
Date: 17 November 2010 00:47
Subject: [Mwananchi] Re: THE NECESSITY OF STUDYING HISTORY:THE PLACE OF CARTHAGE IN AFRICAN TECHNOLOGICAL AND MILITARY HISTORY
To: Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com
Wait a minute! You mean to tell this list that you two didn't know
that the Phoenicians of Western Asia were a sea faring people of the
Eastern Mediterranean were ship builders? That their civilization
spread into coastal North Africa including establishing the polis
Cathage as a Phoenician colony of the 1st millennium BCE? You didn't
know that Cathage became an Empire extended through the Southern
Mediterranean and West and North into Spain, and was the chief sea
faring merchant, naval and military rival of Rome for control of the
Mediterennean, and you before now never heard of the Punic Wars and
Hannibal?
The Phoenician language was Semitic, as were Hebrew and Arabic, so
there is not much difference to the change to Arabic. There was no
"Arab conquest" of Carthage. Rather, Carthage was defeated by Rome and
along with Egypt and the former Macedonian Empires in Asia was
incorporated into the Roman Empire, then Byzantium. The armies of the
Byzantine Empire were defeated by the Arab armies, the same as thethat the Phoenicians of Western Asia were a sea faring people of the
Eastern Mediterranean were ship builders? That their civilization
spread into coastal North Africa including establishing the polis
Cathage as a Phoenician colony of the 1st millennium BCE? You didn't
know that Cathage became an Empire extended through the Southern
Mediterranean and West and North into Spain, and was the chief sea
faring merchant, naval and military rival of Rome for control of the
Mediterennean, and you before now never heard of the Punic Wars and
Hannibal?
The Phoenician language was Semitic, as were Hebrew and Arabic, so
there is not much difference to the change to Arabic. There was no
"Arab conquest" of Carthage. Rather, Carthage was defeated by Rome and
along with Egypt and the former Macedonian Empires in Asia was
incorporated into the Roman Empire, then Byzantium. The armies of the
Carthaginian army and navy had previously been defeated by the Roman
army and navy.
Lil Joe
On 11/16/10, Patricia <paanderson2003@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Toyin,
> An interesting article, you are right, we need to study history and some
> geography also. I`ve been to Carthage whilst on a visit to Tunisia, the
> Roman remains were very interesting, one place I do recall was a Roman
> amphitheatre, magnificent. My husband worked in Libya for a number of years
> and he visited many similar sites to those in Tunisia.
> I wasn`t aware of the history of ship building either, again a study of the
> history is always useful.
> As to Africans and ship building, there is a great history of building Dhows
> off the coast of Mombasa and Zanzibar, I saw some of these magnificent
> vessels at the old port in Mombasa, also in Zanzibar.
> Patricia.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com, toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@...> wrote:
>>
>> I had thought Africans had never built ships.Then I saw this on the
>> Wikipedia article on Carthage, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage> a
>> civilization that was in North Africa,in present day Tunisa,centuries
>> before
>> its eventual domination by Arabs:
>>
>> "The navy of Carthage was one of the largest in the
>> Mediterranean<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean>,
>> using serial production <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_production>
>> to
>> maintain high numbers at moderate cost. The sailors and
>> marines<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marines>of the Carthaginian navy
>> were predominantly recruited from the
>> Punic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic> citizenry, unlike the
>> multi-national allied and mercenary
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary>troops of the Carthaginian
>> armies. The navy offered a stable profession and
>> financial security for its sailors. This helped to contribute to the
>> city's
>> political stability, since the unemployed, debt ridden poor in other
>> cities
>> were frequently inclined to support revolutionary leaders in the hope of
>> improving their own
>> lot.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage#cite_note-9>The
>> reputation of her skilled sailors implies that there was in peacetime
>> a
>> training of oarsmen and coxswains, giving their navy a cutting edge in
>> naval
>> matters. The trade of Carthaginian merchantmen was by land across the
>> Sahara
>> and especially by sea throughout the Mediterranean and far into the
>> Atlantic
>> to the tin-rich islands of Britain and to West Africa. There is evidence
>> that at least one Punic expedition under
>> Hanno<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator>sailed along
>> the West African coast to regions south of the Tropic
>> of Cancer <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropic_of_Cancer>, describing how
>> the sun was in the north at noon".
>>
>> I was even more struck to read that the Romans upgraded their warships
>> through the adaptation of Carthaginian ships:
>>
>> "Polybius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius> wrote in the sixth book
>> of
>> his History that the Carthaginians were "more exercised in maritime
>> affairs
>> than any other
>> people."[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage#cite_note-10>Their
>> navy included some 300 to 350 warships. The Romans, who had little
>> experience in naval warfare prior to the First Punic
>> War<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Punic_War>,
>> managed to finally defeat Carthage with a combination of reverse
>> engineering
>> captured Carthaginian ships, recruitment of experienced
>> Greek<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>sailors from the ranks of
>> its conquered cities, the unorthodox
>> corvus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvus_%28weapon%29> device, and
>> their
>> superior numbers in marines and rowers. In the Third Punic
>> War<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War>Polybius describes a
>> tactical innovation of the Carthaginians, augmenting
>> their few triremes with small vessels that carried hooks (to attack the
>> oars) and fire (to attack the hulls). With this new combination, they were
>> able to stand their ground against the superior Roman numbers for a whole
>> day."
>>
>> The article describes the culture and records of Carthage as destroyed by
>> Rome at the end of the Third Punic War.
>>
>> The effect of this Roman victory on global civilization is so described:
>> "Over the course of the next century, these three major conflicts between
>> Rome and Carthage would determine the course of Western civilization. The
>> wars included a Carthaginian invasion led by
>> Hannibal<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Barca>,
>> which nearly prevented the rise of the Roman Empire. Eventual victory by
>> Rome was a turning point which meant that the civilization of the ancient
>> Mediterranean would pass to the modern world via Southern Europe instead
>> of
>> North Africa".
>>
>> It is vital to cross-check Wikipedia with more definitive scholarly data.
>> I
>> expect this information is accurate,though, on account of the fame of
>> Carthage in its wars against Rome,in which it is described as occupying
>> Italy for some years.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Toyin
>>
>
>
>
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