My only response here will be that it will be an incorrect reading of my position thus far to conclude that the issue for me has been a counterpoise of liberal democracy to authoritarian rule!
My discourse has been about the capitalist system and its structures, and the need to overcome this. Capitalism as a system has been manifested in both authoritarian and liberal democratic moulds.
And in fact, i go as far as to contend that capitalism and the capitalist system and process of production and reproduction [of itself] is inherently authoritarian in its infacncy, in the period of what Marx called primitive accumulation of capital; and what liberals and capitalists of mature capitalism refer to as massive and chronic corruption/looting of the state treasury.
Advanced capitalisms which somehow have had no direct history of say colonial exploitation have benefited immensely from colonial expansion and trade by others,
So capitalism as a mode of production will always produce mass misery, and unequal distribution of wealth.
Regards to all,
Jaye
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 7:54:27 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Why is Africa in such a mess?
To Jaye and other listmembers who are interested, here is a link to a piece I did for Pambazuka News outlining my apprehensions about the menace of liberal democracy in Nigeria and how it is doing more harm than good (http://pambazuka.org/en/category/features/63116). Since it was published, a few other folks have chimed in to say that the same is true for their own African countries. My critique is of course not an indictment of democracy (there are different kinds of democracy and some of them are not patented by the West), but of the copy-cart, winner-takes-all multiparty democracy we find in many African countries today. Nor is it an endorsement of a return to dictatorship. It is rather a call for a different kind of democracy, one that does less harm and more good to/for our people. My recommendation at the end is underwhelming, I admit, but it's because I didn't have time to flesh it out. But the bigger takeaway here is that, as far as Nigeria (and maybe other African ) is concerned, liberal democracy is NOT INHERENTLY superior to authoritarian rule. Both can and have been abused and both can and have been used in some settings to do good for Africa's poor and vulnerable. I speak to Nigerians all the time who long for the return of the military era and abhor this "democracy." And, of course, there were times in our history when people flocked the streets to celebrate military coups. What it tells me is that in the minds of our people, the democracy/dictatorship dichotomy is not that big a deal; what counts is good governance and attention to their problems. Of course, if you put a generic question to them about democracy and dictatorship (without the hypothetical variables like the one I had in my previous framing in response to Ken), a majority may choose democracy; but is that because they believe in liberal democratic practice as an inherently superior political order or because it is, for the moment, a less bad option and because they are still reeling from the hangover of our recent military rule experience? The fetishization of liberal democracy has become part of the problem in Africa. And it is destroying several of our countries.
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com> wrote:
"So altough it does matter that there has been this general improvement in conditions; it is equally important and decisive that there is still mass missery and poverty, and that the gap between the rich and the poor has widened tremendously!"Jaye,
For goodness sake, the Chinese have only been in the business of industrial capitalism for a few decades and you expect "mass misery and poverty" to be a thing of the past? This is a country of over a billion people and a country that until roughly two decades ago was a rustic habitat of peasantry. I know that Chinese economic ascent has been called a miracle but even that miracle has a limit and is still evolving and growing. Give it time please. The country is just emerging from a prolong period of closure and peasantry. transitions are always messy. Check history. At last you concede the great strides and "general improvements in conditions" going on in China. We in Africa could use some "general improvement in conditions." In fact we need it badly and we don't really care how it is delivered--through capitalism or some other economic model, through liberal democracy or some other political model. Let's hope and work towards the just order of "egalitarian equity" but let's not sleep in the meantime and abandon our people in poverty and destitution while other Third World nations' leaders make decisions and sacrifices that translate into massive dividends for their citizens.
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:17 AM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
moses and jaye
i have been apprehensive about hogging too much the air space in my dialogue with moses, and jaye is making points along the lines of my thinking, so i will let his comments stand for mine, with my thanks. i am referring especially to the last three postings which cover china and nigeria.
moses, if there is really anything particular you want me to respond to without burdening the list with my thoughts, please send them to harrow@msu.edu.
otherwise i will jump in just when the bug bites me too hard
ken
On 12/23/10 8:05 AM, Jaye Gaskia wrote:
Perhaps it is also important that we put in historical perspective the origins
of the specific expression of capitalism in the scandinavia states, as well as
the origins of the welfare state in capitalism in general.
It took a world wide chronic crisis of capitalism, producing two world wars and
provoking revolutions in Russia and parts of eastern europe [before the 2nd
world war& the iron curtain], and the threat of socialist revolutions in
mainstream europe itself, for keynesianism, which hitherto had been on the
fringe of capitalist political and economic discourse to become accepted as
mainstream and become the basis of social engineering of the post world war 2
years, to mitigate the crisis of capitalism, and reduce the risk of revolution.
And it succeeded, thanks largely to the opening up of the colonial possessions
for rapacious capitalist expansion and which helped to finance the welfare state
in europe.
It is the structures laid down in that period to underpin restored capitalist
growth, improve conditions of living and stave off revolution that is still
holding Africa and much of the former colonial possessions captive till this
day.
It is the internal resistance and manouvrings of new nationalist elites from the
former colonies within the sysytem that is generating the momentum for tinkering
with and restructuring, however minimally, the current global architecture of
capitalism; hence the gradual replacement and eventaul surplanting of the G7,
then G 8 by the G 20.
Afterall the world's population has increased tremendously, and there are many
more 'countries' and states now than there were post war; so their is a little
bit more room at the apex of the capitalist pyramid to jostle. Like every
ecosystem, the capitalist system has its carrying capacity for successful,
dominant, and dominating countries and peoples.
Regards,
Jaye Gaskia
----- Original Message ----
From: kenneth harrow<harrow@msu.edu>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 11:17:35 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Why is Africa in such a mess?
moses
maybe it is the case that the aspects of scandinavia which you admire are the
"socialist" aspects of their society. maybe your statement about embracing
capitalism, despite its flaws, because it will lead to the creation of wealth
for all, or almost all, ignores the possibility that the very poverty in africa
about which we are concerned has been created, not mitigated, by the capitalist
system that has held it in thrall, during colonial days, neocolonial days,
globalization days.
i am not an historian, so you can correct me here. i thought it generally the
case that the economic situation throughout much of africa has deteriorated
since independence. that when socialist models in tanzania or guinea were tried,
or at least when neocolonialism was resisted, the economic clout of the western
states was enough to subvert those efforts.
you keep referring to the failures of socialism as though there really had been
a state in which the proletariat had become the ruling class. no one believes
that.
no one on the left would defend the authoritarianism that told hold of states
that flourished the banner of socialism or communism. you are attacking a straw
dog, while touting those aspects of societies you admire that actually approach
more successfully ideals of an egalitarian distribution of wealth, which flies
in the face of capitalism, especially capitalism today.
you speak of progress as if it were evident. sorry, i would disagree. just
within my lifetime i have seen the great disparities of wealth appear in the
u.s.; have seen homeless appear in reagan and thatcher's day, where before they
were rare; have seen the continuing demise of the inner cities. while the rich
got richer.
maybe the 10% that hoard the wealth in many african states might be criticized
equally for following this model of accentuating disparities in wealth and
ignoring social services. that model is the neoliberal model of the imf.
it is up to us to resist it. we don't have to call for a socialist revolution to
do so; but when we advocate for a movement back to greater programs for the
disinherited, for less freedom for companies to generate profits for themselves,
we are taxed as advocating socialism.
so be it.
ken
On 12/22/10 4:04 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu wrote:
Capitalism is flawed in many ways, but its excesses and flaws and their impacts-- kenneth w. harrow
on the poor can be mitigated while still harnessing its wealth-creating
potential. There is no contradiction here, just nuance that is grounded in a
quest for progress and the need to defeat or reduce extreme poverty.
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
east lansing, mi 48824-1036
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu
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kenneth w. harrow
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
east lansing, mi 48824-1036
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu
--
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There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
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There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
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