Mamadou Diouf is the newly appointed Director of the Institute for
African Studies. Phrases in bold indicate when our reporter, Melanie
Gendrey is speaking.
I read in your interview in the Amsterdam News, that you wanted to
create a bridge between the African students at Columbia and the
African people in the Diaspora and the African people in Africa. What
did you mean by that?
I think I meant something which is very simple. Columbia is in the
same environment as Harlem and Harlem is not only the place where you
have the most vibrant African American community, but it is also where
you have one of the largest African communities. So it is impossible
to actually direct an African Studies program without interacting with
people who are stake holders about Africa, people who are interested
in Africa because they are always represented in relation to Africa.
You have Africans and African Americans who are interested in
distancing themselves from Africa because of the 'failures' of Africa.
But the problem is that we will never be able to run away from Africa.
You will always be connected if you are Black, wherever you are
living, whatever your success is, you will always be defined in
relation to this continent you are supposedly from. So interacting
with people to better understand this continent is very important. But
also making them part of what we are doing is important because it is
one way to understand not only how African Americans dream about
Africa but it is also probably one way of making them actors, agents
of change in Africa and this is very important. And for Africans it's
simple, they are still related to this continent. They are sending
money, they are sending ideas, they are interacting with people-so if
you are studying Africa we have to understand how those people
understand the continent, how they represent the continent, how they
think of changing the continent, or intervening in the continent, or
contributing to changes in Africa. And one thing which is simple
today: Africans outside of Africa are not only political actors but
they are also social, cultural and economic actors and maintaining the
flow, the traffic of people, the traffic of ideas, the traffic of
cultural forms, the traffic of money, all of which are very important.
This is why, for the Institute, participating in running this
dialogue, this conversation of Africans here and African-Americans
with Africans still in Africa is crucial.
What do you think is the role of the youth, here specifically, to
change Africa?
I think that they are the most important actors, precisely because
they are young, because they have their life in front of them, and
also because they are part of a larger world and in many cases they
are globalized. One of the main challenges of Africa is not only about
Africans recovering their own identity but also about Africans
recovering their own identity in order to contribute, to be part of a
larger world, in order to be better globalized and gain from
globalization. The best actors for that are the youth But the problem
is that they need to be educated so we are going back again to what I
was saying and this education is both rediscovering who they are,
dreaming about who they are, and about their future but also making
sure that they are equipped for the competition because globalization
is based on competition and is based on competing positively and
winning.
The same way that we study Aristotle and Plato, what do you think
should be the books that should be the basis of a curriculum of an
African Studies Department?
Every book which talks about Africa is good for the curriculum. But
what is important is to basically see how to equip somebody to reach a
level where they will be able to deal critically with everything, and
shying away from things which are bad about Africa is not the
solution, celebrating books that are celebrating Africa is not a
solution. The solution is to being able to face what is out there and
invent your own future and you invent your own future because you are
critical both in relation to yourself and in relation to your world
around you.
So I see that you taught at Cheikh Anta Diop University. What do you
think of Cheikh Anta Diop's works?
I think it is important. It is important to the discussion about
Africa and to the discussion about history and universal history.
Because my own take on Cheikh Anta is simple I am not sure that it is
about blackness. It's about Africa and Africans in the world stage and
I think he was locked in a discussion about the race of Egyptians
because people were just obsessed by that. But the center of his
thinking was rewriting humanity and replacing Africa at the center and
replacing Africa as part of it. What he kept saying is simple: the
literature about Egypt has been saying that Egypt is the first culture
and it was a black culture, up to the moment the Europeans thought
that their expansion was the expansion of modernity and reason and
they began defining themselves as the only civilized people against
people who were not civilized, the African included. So what they did
is to rewrite the history of Egypt to fit their civilizing mission
because they had to show that the Africans were not civilized, had
never been civilized and that's why they needed to be civilized. So
Cheikh Anta was trying to show how this process of rewriting not only
European history but world history was realized and he began a process
of deconstruction that showed that not only did Eurocentric
historiography not fit the facts, but also how it was done. So this is
the important part of his contribution and it is a part which is
actually providing an historical basis, a kind of autonomous
historical basis for Africa. It is necessary but it is not sufficient
because you have to keep inventing, you have to keep inventing
yourself and the fact is that at this juncture, for different reasons,
which are impossible to explain, Africans are lagging behind. So how
do we reconcile the power of this Ancient history with our projection
into a future from a present which is quite difficult?- this becomes
the question, Which is why I reiterated that it is about reaching a
critical age, it is about dealing with yourself, which is much more
important than trying to be recognized by the others. What is
important is what we want and how do we want it and how we achieve it
because if you don't have this strong basis you will never resist
being manipulated, being dominated or being actually oriented in very
specific directions which are not necessarily taking into account your
own interests. So for me Cheikh Anta Diop's intervention is an
important intervention but it also has to be reevaluated at many
times. We just can't keep repeating what he has already said; we have
to accentuate what he has said. And adding something to that is going
beyond reassessing Egypt. It is also today, now, making sure that we
are able to reinvent ourselves for a greater future.
So Cheikh Anta Diop did this work and then we have Mr. Sarkozy,
President of the Republic of France going to his university making a
speech about how Africans did not have a History So my question is
that it seems that this history that Cheikh Anta Diop and others are
trying to rebuild is forgotten or at least not taken into
consideration. So what can we do about that?
Two answers First I don't care about Sarkozy and I don't care about
what he says. Sarkozy is not part of my life, he is French, I am
Senegalese. So my first reaction is why does he think that he has the
right to say what he said in Dakar? It is because of our [assumed]
position, which is a weaker position Sarkozy thinks he can
legitimately say what he said in relation to the position of Senegal's
relation to France and because the Senegalese ruling class accepted
such a situation. I was amazed that nobody stood up and walked out of
this room because it should have been the only response. It is not
about discussing if he is right or if he is wrong. If I have to
repeat, as an intellectual, if I have to repeat what have been done by
generations of intellectuals since at least the late eighteen century,
if I have to keep repeating the same thing in trying to convince
people like Sarkozy that they are wrong, we might as well just shut
down, close and disappear. Which is why I don't want to discuss
Sarkozy, I don't want to make the point which was made, as I said, by
generations of intellectuals. Of course he is wrong! But it is not the
problem. The problem is engendering conditions under which we are able
to create a situation in which nobody is in a position to say what he
said. If we don't achieve that, they will keep repeating it. Black
intellectuals have shown that it was not true; science has shown that
it is absolutely untrue. Why do people continue saying it? Even
including an American Nobel Prize laureate who said the same thing as
Sarkozy. It is not only Sarkozy. But worse, why is the President of
South Africa ready to actually align with Sarkozy saying that he is
right? This is the problem we have to address, but we have to address
it politically. It is not an intellectual problem, it is not an
historical problem, it is a political problem to be solved
politically.
Considering the recent events in Columbia and around the country, with
the nooses and all this, what do you think the African Studies
Department can do to address the African Students here at Columbia who
feel uncomfortable of course, and threatened by them. Do you think
African Studies Department has a role at all in addressing the African
student body at Columbia, or dictating or telling them what should be
their attitude towards this?
I really frame the questions differently. I profoundly believe that
the Institute of African Studies would be what the students want. They
have to define the contour of the Institute , they have to say what
they want because they are the main 'consumers' of what we are
proposing and they have to make sure that what they are getting is
precisely what they want and what they want is defined in relation to
what I have been talking about earlier about the equipment they need
to understand Africa, to understand the world, to change Africa
because many of the SIPA students are oriented to-wards policy making,
towards intervening in changing government, in changing the economy,
in changing the social system, etc But they are also in many cases
Africans, citizens of African countries; they are supposed to be
actors in their own countries So for me the program is as I said, a
conversation about Africa but a conversation that enables people to
come with their own takes on it. I profoundly believe in the power of
pluralism and in the productivity of pluralism. When people have
different perspectives, they are able to have a very fruitful
discussion, so my problem is that the Institute as an academic
structure is of course devoting to proposing things which fit the
needs of students and the students' input is key for me. Students have
to tell me what they want I am not saying that I am going to do what
they want but I am ready to negotiate, discuss with them and make sure
that we agree that the curriculum we have discussed is the best for
the students but is also the best for the Institute. Because what is
best for the students is best for me because I am actually evaluated
based on the performance, what I am offering to students and the
satisfaction of the students. For the rest, what we have to work
together, to make sure that we are engaging in open conversation and
making sure that Africa is discussed on campus, that Africa is
featured here in the best way possible from an economic business
discussion to a literary cultural discussion. This is what I am
interested in. I am interested in making sure that the African
presence at Columbia is felt and it is a positive one. But it is also
not only a presence but the contribution of the Institute and the
contribution of Africans in defining what Columbia is. It is not only
about what Columbia is offering but it is about also how we are
shaping Columbia as people who are interested in Africa.
So is this an invitation to the Africans students to come to you
sometimes with suggestions
on how to change this curriculum?
Absolutely! And if they don't come to me I will go to them. It's
simple and I will make sure this is what I am doing. I work very
nicely with organizing a diplomatic forum We have been working for
these last two months on the curriculum and I hope that we will be
able to come up with a proposal about the class offer I have been also
working - and we have already a proposal - with undergraduate students
because we are going to come out with an African Major and Minor.
Fantastic! And have you encountered any challenge so far in your
endeavor to change the curriculum and brining the best about Africa?
Because the Department was closed for a while and it is reopened now
so maybe do you think there are any challenges?
Everything is a challenge. Africa will always be a challenge, as a
result of the history of this continent and the way it is featured in
the world. Africa in the world stage is a challenge and we have to be
ready for that. So for me, again, it is not an intellectual decision
to change the perception of Africa. Changing perception is probably
the most difficult thing to do but in the 21st century, the way you
are perceived is basically defined by the way you place yourself in
the world. This is the moment of the Internet, of web-sites, where we
are no longer in a position of shame. "We don't have the means...
People are doing this to us because they can produce but we cannot...
The cyberspace is open, we have to post ourselves. At least today 70%
of who we are and how we are perceived is based on what we are doing
so we have to make sure that we are doing things the best way possible
to make sure that people will be forced to accept us, on our terms,
not on the way they are representing us. We are represented, people
they don't even need you to tell them who you are because they know
it, so how to cause the political social intellectual conditions to
change -that is the challenge. And again this is political; this is
what politics is about. It is providing, get-ting the necessary source
to make sure that people will look at you the way you are presenting
yourself. This is what the Chinese are now doing, why? Because they
are economically successful, that's it. The Indians are doing it
slowly, why? Because they are economically successful. You have to
show who you are. People are not nice just like that. It's simple if
somebody knows because he has a gun, that you don't have a gun, he can
come and take all the country, you, whatever. He will probably do it
but if he knows that you have a gun to defend yourself, the terms of
the relationship becomes complicated. The kind of equilibrium based on
who have the nuclear power is precisely based on that. If we have
nothing to present, nobody will notice us. We have to be ready for
that.
So since the problem is political, economic basically, do you think
this department can be a political platform to form people's mindset
to start this?
I am not sure that you can use a platform like these regional
institutes to achieve something back in the region. Africa will not be
changed outside of Africa. The forces that are going to change Africa
are inside Africa. They are not outside. The contribution of Africans
outside of Africa is important but contrary to what we think, in many
cases, it is not true that it is decisive. Again because we are
perceived by Africans in Africa differently in many ways for reasons
which are completely acceptable. Living outside of Africa, being part
of a world which is not Africa, we react differently in many ways. I
am not saying that we are not Africans but we are Africans in our own
ways but we are in some cases very different from our own people, Very
different from even the members of our own family who did not have the
chance, the opportunity, who have different way of dealing with
things. Travelling is one of the best mechanism for educating people
So the academic platform is an easy platform to change and it is
probably the easiest site in which we can change perceptions, but what
comprises your academic agenda is important because your academic
agenda could have an impact on the political agenda and the political
agenda usually has framed your academic agenda. That we will not
change Africa by being here is obvious, but we can change the way
Africa is being taught, learnt and perceived, yes
Where do you see Africa in 50 or 100 years from now?
I am very optimistic about Africa because I think that Africa has been
experimenting since the colonial period and they are trying to find
their way. And in many cases, as I said earlier in our conversation,
Africa is going in many directions, positive and negative that is why
it is so difficult to come up with one image of what Africa is
experiencing because different African regions have different
experiences and as I said, some very negative, some very positive. But
these last 20 years, through wars, through democratization processes,
through elections, through movements, migrations, Africans themselves
are redefining their continent. Africa's fate is no longer entirely
dictated by the super powers and is less and less defined by former
colonial metropolis. Africans through their own experience and
sometimes very difficult experiences are actually shaping their
future, in a kind of positive way. So Africa is changing, and it's
changing radically and what shows it is not only what is happening
within the continent but also the success of Africans outside of the
continent, which has an impact on the continent. And the contributions
of African migrants sending remittances back home but also intervening
in the politics of their country. So I think that we can expect, which
is already happening, different political socio economic shape of
Africa Of course the challenges are great, in particular the challenge
of HIV/AIDS but again it is what I was saying, if you look at HIV/AIDS
in Center and Southern Africa, you compare with West Africa, it's
different. So the problem is that we always think of Africa in this
macro terms and macro definitions. "Africans are starving, Africans,
all of them are sick because they have HIV/AIDS, Africans are
corrupted" which is not necessarily true in every corner of Africa but
true sometimes up to a caricature. So we have to take this continent
the way it is and understand its history to understand where it is
heading development advocated by Jeffery Sachs and countless others.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/idaya/interview_diouf.html
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