http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/bodies-of-53-executed-gaddafi-loyalists-discovered-2375436.html
This is only one report among many, the substantive, detailed veracity of which needs confirmation. However, if true, it gives a lie to the heat-of-the moment idea of war that Ken would have us pasteurize the behaviors of those who did it. I was not just singling Qaddafi out--I cannot, after all, single out whose names I do not know, and would say that their deaths are equally awful; I also pointed to the trussed up "black" African who, no doubt, was meted out with the same fate. We need a another moral theory about the comparative awfulness of death, which I'll leave others to pursue. I was using his execution -- for that is likely what it was-- as an exemplar of a kind of revenge that casts the people who did this, and who apparently have no scruples about doing it to others less known that Qaddafi, in the light, or dark, if you wish, that they deserve. Either way, it does not bode well for those requesting reconciliation.
I would also add, though, Ken, while I am no theorist of the relativity of death, that you are being artful in suggesting that the significance of one life in death should matter less than others. Of course, all lives are the same, if by that you mean we should not ascribe less significance to one life over another. After all, we are all someones' god's children, and hopefully, equal before them-- or, in the language of human rights, have equal person hood that we have simply in virtue of being human. Unfortunately, however, some person's life is more significant than others to others. If that were not the case, they would not have murdered him in the way that they did-- whether out of revenge, or if they were put up to it.
Pablo
On 24/10/11 10:59 PM, kenneth harrow wrote:
hi pablo
this issue has worked on me. i don't believe we are in a new age since 1945, despite my very strong support for the icc.
we are still ensconced within the justice of the winners that winks at atrocities. i think of the infamous lt. calley of vietnam, who got off with a slap of the wrist; or the torturers of abu ghraib and guantanamo, and the slaps of the wrist only for subordinates. i think, also, that my claim that he was probably killed in the heat of the moment makes it different from govt policies of disappearances, torture, and rendition. the bits we've seen of the killing presented the informal scene of a chase and violence surrounding them.
i am not saying that despite this, extrajudicial killing is ok. it isn't. but this was one moment of such a killing in a scene in which the nature of the combat must have resulted in considerable deaths on both sides for days and weeks. we are singling it out, strangely, as if it had greater significance.
is lavonda wishes we might respect the dead, then i would not place the death of a dictator above that of the ordinary people, on both sides, and get more troubled by his than theirs.
ken
On 10/23/11 9:37 PM, Pablo Idahosa wrote:Ken, you don't deserve to wear that hat anymore if that's what you think. We have come along way since 1945, which is why, among many others, Nazi war criminals are still hunted down but given due process, like those who bombed children in churches during the civil rights. I can remember when ex- (President-for life) Sergent Doe was captured and tortured, and Liberians, among others whom I knew at the time, said he served what he got. He didn't, no more then Qaddafi deserved what happened to him -- that's why we have the processes that we have. It's not for you to say that.
As I have said on this forum, I am not always a big fan of the International Criminal Court, with its often partial and sometimes expedient judgements that serve particular contingently realpolitik ends, and where only defeated states and their leaders stand in the dock. The ICC, nonetheless, is one of institutional mechanisms for human rights procedure that is not supposed to brook process against those whom we suck our teeth at and dismiss as not worthy of the justice we would have for others. Ikhide's rhetoric can sometimes be funny, cutting through so much BS that we put out. But it is not the kind of commentary that we do for our classes, with all the limitations that he is wont, and sometimes compellingly, to point out about them that I would sometimes acknowledge myself. We don't believe in kangaroo courts; we shouldn't believe in lynch mob "justice". If they do run parallel, as we know in the real world they do to norms that we ought to to subscribe to, then we nonetheless condemn them. One person's freedom to tell it like it is, is the unstable double edged sword for murderous acts, even in name of heat of the moment--if that what is was--that even a kind of war torn crime passionel that is just not acceptable.
I do wonder, however, if some really people wanted Qaddafi alive. Qaddafi knew a lot about what the west wanted, what he had done for them, the compromises he made on their behalf. He knew too much; could point to some many people who benefited from his erratic autocratic rule, including the NATO triumvirate, along with the U.S. that supported those who overthrew him rule. He was undoubtedly a source and site of much that they did not want told. These are speculations, I know, but so much about this tawdry intervention brings out the kinds of conspiratorial speculation that I am usually averse to indulging in. Time and historians will tell, by which we hope all Libyans have a better life than the one he wanted for them.
Pablo
On 23/10/11 1:06 PM, Lavonda Staples wrote:This man represented absolute evil to some. He represented paternal philanthropy to others. To Black people he represents one Black man who could only be handled in death. That's when all prisoners, kings, slaves, masters, evil and good men can be handled - in death.
The outcry of Afrikan people is due to the way in which his body is being used as a sideshow item. I am disgusted by the video of people being brought into the place where his body is being held to take pictures. I'm an American and I would bet everything that those in charge of his body are being paid a fee for his service.
Disrespect of the dead is a cardinal sin in African American culture. In Afrikan culture it is a blasphemy.
That's why we're pissed. That's why we have sympathy over the corpse of a man who can no longer defend himself. He's lying there without a shirt, without socks, without shoes and without his hat to cover his head. His wives and children are not able to wash the blood, spit, urine and feces from his body. That's THEIR right. They paid the cost to be the family of Muammar Gadhaffi and now diseased dogs are paying a price to take rinky dink flip phone camera photos of him.
For those of you who don't get this and who cannot see this vision I feel very sorry for you. You're ignoring his human condition. Look into your mind and see all of your evil and all of your good and ask yourself, "does any body, bereft of life, warrant this type of treatment?" The answer should be no.
--
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 11:57 AM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
tony--
i wish i could put on my amnesty international hat, which i do wear, and cluck my tongue over the killing of ghaddafi. but i can't. i want to let ikhide say it for me, his direct invective is perfect: ghaddafi got what he deserved.
of course he shouldhave been tried, but the trials of victors are meaningless, or worse. were we really edified by the trial of sadam hussein? justice isn't served by the victors. he received expeditious justice, but if you look at those clips of his capture, to imagine, under those circumstances, that those young men were going to let him off seems delusional to me. they were in the midst of a chase and a fight; do you think they were thinking about how they would look to the rest of the world if they were to record their abuse of ghaddafi and kill him?
i couldn't help thinking of hitler and mussolini. do you remember what they did to il duce? hung him upside down till he died. publicly. gleefully. not edifying. but revenge during the war. would anyone have wept at the shooting of hitler? probably most of us regretted that he got to himself first.
we live, i think, on dual tracks in our lives. our physical being in the world is full of passions and flesh. our words may be daggers, but they don't kill or harm as much as create our social worlds, our ways to be able to disagree and still share space. ghaddafi could call the rebels rats all he wanted; but the rockets and bullets were demanding another answer, and he ultimately received it.
ken
On 10/23/11 11:53 AM, Tony Agbali wrote:--
--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Toyin Falola <toyin.falola@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
From: Toyin Falola <toyin.falola@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Many in Sub-Saharan Africa Mourn Qaddafi's Death
To: USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 7:49 AM
--Many in Sub-Saharan Africa Mourn Qaddafi's Death
By JOSH KRONPublished: New York Times, October 22, 2011
NAIROBI, Kenya - While Libya's former rebels and many Western nations welcomed the end of the country's long and brutal dictatorship, many sub-Saharan Africans are mourning the death of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, celebrated as much for his largesse as for his willingness to stand up to the West.To them, his violent death was another sad chapter in a long-running narrative of Western powers meddling in Africa's affairs.
"We are the 1 percent who are not celebrating," said Salim Abdul, who helps run a major mosque in Uganda's capital named for the former Libyan leader, who provided the money to build it.
"He loved Uganda," said Mr. Abdul in an interview at the mosque, in Kampala. He noted that Colonel Qaddafi had committed to paying the salaries for the staff of 20 for the next 20 years. "His death means everything comes to an end," Mr. Abdul said.
On Friday, approximately 30,000 people packed the mosque to pay tribute to the slain leader, according to local news media in Uganda.
The Daily Monitor, a prominent independent Ugandan newspaper, reported that Sheikh Amir Mutyaba, a former ambassador to Libya, wept as he told followers that Colonel Qaddafi had "died as a hero." He added that while "Allah will bless him," foreign "oil diggers will be punished," likely alluding to a perception among some that the West intervened in Libya mainly because of its oil riches.
In Nigeria, Africa's most populous country and about half Muslim, a senator told local news media that Colonel Qaddafi "was one of the finest African leaders we have." And a former Nigerian militia leader, who said he was once financed by Colonel Qaddafi, told Agence France-Presse that the former Libyan leader's death would be "avenged."
The colonel "spilled his blood as a martyr to rekindle the fire of revolution all over the world," said Mujahid Dokubo-Asari, the militia leader. "The people of the world will rise up against this."
Colonel Qaddafi came to power in 1969 as a 27-year old ideologue, who modeled himself on President Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt, and focused his energy on leading a pan-Arab renaissance. But by the turn of the century, feeling spurned by his fellow Arabs, he turned his focus south toward sub-Saharan Africa. He used his own money, as well as state-owned investment firms, to build mosques, hotels and telecommunications companies.
He also meddled in the politics of other African countries - at least a dozen coups or attempted coups on the continent were traced to his support.
One of the many grandiose titles he embraced for himself was "the king of kings of Africa."
Over time, his efforts won him many African allies, and when the uprising against him began this year, the African Union took months to recognize a rebel council as the country's governing authority.
There were many reports early in the revolution that Colonel Qaddafi had reached out to fighters in African states and had used them as mercenaries, but journalists saw little evidence of mercenaries during the revolt.
As Colonel Qaddafi's enemies begin their efforts to rebuild their country, many on the continent remain angry that the transfer of power happened, in large part, because of the military support NATO provided to the former rebels.
In Zimbabwe, where President Robert Mugabe led a liberation struggle against a white-minority regime that ended in 1980, a presidential spokesman said Colonel Qaddafi would be remembered there for his support of Zimbabwe's independence fight and railed against foreign interference in Africa's affairs.
"The government cannot accept drawing blood as a model for changing political systems on the continent," said George Charamba, the spokesman. "Moreso when that blood is drawn at the instigation of foreign countries."
Zimbabwe, of course, has had its own run-ins with West, facing intense criticism for a bloody, discredited presidential election in 2008. "As a matter of principle," Mr. Charamba said, "Zimbabwe does not believe it is the duty of the West to tell us who our friends are and who our enemies are, who the beautiful ones are and who the ugly ones are."Even some Africans who said they did not necessarily support Colonel Qaddafi were stricken by the way he was killed and argued that he had left behind an important legacy.
"I had never been really a fan of Qaddafi, but now I am touched by how he died," said Manny Ansar, the director of a popular annual music festival in Mali. "Love him or not, we must recognize that this is one of the greatest African leaders who influenced several generations, including mine, and found in the constancy and courage of his positions what we research in a hero. In a word: pride."
--
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-- kenneth w. harrow distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 harrow@msu.edu
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--
La Vonda R. StaplesSt. Louis MO314-731-7007#deliciousLV"It is the duty of all who have been fortunate to receive an education to assist others in the same pursuit." Dr. Jean-Germain Gros, April 2009
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-- kenneth w. harrow distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 harrow@msu.edu--
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