MsJoe;
I have not been favored with this information proving the revolt was engineered by the west. I am willing to be convinced.
Libya needs a competent police force. Right now, there is a vacuum. I am sure, in time, they should be able to set this up. It does not take a genius. I am praying that the Libyans stabilize their country so they move on. and start developing their country.
Prof.
Ishe komborera Africa (Enoch Sontonga, 1897)
From: MsJoe21St@aol.com
To: Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com, zimsite@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 11:53:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Libya's NTC
Since it has been proven that foreign powers engineered and steered the so-called revolt, you are fostering what psychologists call gaslighting or alternative reality. I think you should ask yourself that if it was a people-propelled revolt, why is the unelected group calling on foreign powers to serve in a capacity of what amounts to internal police of Libya?In a message dated 10/30/2011 2:33:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rsimoyi@comcast.net writes:Naomi;
Thanks for your post. We should ask the Libyan people why they revolted against him despite being so good? All the good things that he did, were par for the course. These are things every government should do if they have the extra cash to spend. I spent 3 months, October to December, 1993 teaching at the University of Qatar in Doha. The Qataris (Qatar citizens.. not the imported labor force they had that did all the work while the native Qataris went searching for women) were given much, much, much more than what Libyans were getting (marriage and a huge chunk of money, new baby and a chunk of money.. study say, engineering (which was not offered at UQ) at universities in the US, UK, etc, and your full tuition and some spending cash is fully paid for by the state). Unfortunately, this only applied to Qatari men.. not the women. No matter what largess the populace receives from the state, people become jaded.. they want more, they want improvement. It is not as if Gadhafi was using his own pocket money to pay for all these amenities Libyans were getting. We in the US receive a lot from our government, but that does not mean we want Obama there for 42 years?
Gadhafi was mercurial, unstable and unpredictable. You do not want such a person in the post of president
Nato intervention, Gadhafi was only getting his own just deserts. He intervened in Northern Island to destabilize NIR. He intervened in Sudan to destabilize Al Bashir, Chad as well. He should not have thought he was immune from being invaded himself. Next, he sponsored terrorism all over the world. Never forgave him for bringing down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in Scotland. Bombing a night club because he knew American GI's frequent the place and killing many people in that club. It is not as if he was suspected of these vile acts.. this was proved. And in the Pan Am bombing he admitted and paid $2.7 billion in compensation.
No, this guy was no good. On top of all this, there is this simple double digit number: 42.
Prof.
Ishe komborera Africa (Enoch Sontonga, 1897)
From: "Naomi Mariwa" <naomi22003@yahoo.com>
To: Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:50:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Libya's NTC
I am really, really confused. I have seen a list of the good things Gaddafi did for Libya. I have googled and googled and searched over and over again, and I cannot see any list of corresponding massive killings and oppressions or other grievances. Can somebody point me to the right place. I want to balance the evil he did against the bad because the end he met really upset me and I do not believe it can even be explained. What were his alleged crimes against humanity before the rebellion started in February? Everyone agreed that ruling for 42 years for any president is not right. But, should it be met with the kind of arsenal displayed by NATO? Will other situations like that be similarly treated? I just want to understand.From: samuel moturi <samoturiy@yahoo.co.uk>
To: mwananchi@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ayittey@gmail.com; munhumutapa@googlegroups.com; padare@yahoogroups.com; zimbabwe2@yahoogroups.com; zimsite@yahoogroups.com; indaba@topica.com
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Libya's NTC
Prof;.Churchill once said"never ever give up".so please put your hands down for our sake.the analysis is indeed thought provoking. It is my second gift this Sunday after the Standard Chartered Bank 9th edition Marathon going on now in Nairobi. Sam
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 04:35 GMT Prof. Reuben H Simoyi wrote:
>
>
>Samuel;
>
>You can read that some of Jupiter's questions are a bit disingenuous, and sometimes they deserve a response like Prof's. It can be vexing to respond to a devil's advocate question; patient though he is a professor and has most likely seen/heard them all. I wish I had the linguistic flair that Prof possesses, maybe I might be just as acerbic. You are right, Jupiter is a great thinker and a good writer (great command of the English language), but sometimes he can't get out of his own way. Like a Tasmanian devil, once he has a position and sunk his fangs in it, he will argue it out to its ( il) logical conclusion even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He would make an exceptionally good dictator. Now, Samuel, correct me if I am wrong about Jupiter's predilections: he will support anyone who is against the West, anyone in Africa who is against white people; hence his support for Mugabe and Gadhafi. All these two peoples'
indiscetions are forgiven since they thumb their noses at the west. I am sorry, I do not buy Jupiter's spiel that he is only interested in the welfare of the Libyan people and not Gadhafi: it does not compute: when he is completely anesthetized about the killing of 20,000 Ndebele's right close to his own home, but completely breaks down sobbing about the poor Libyans, 4,000 miles away? Nor the 200+ people Mugabe killed to win an election in June 2008; maybe some of them maybe even related to him. Those people are expendable, but the poor Libyans are not; they need saving? ; Hence Prof (the real prof, not me) can be quite dismissive in his responses.
>
>I think, also, when it comes to Libya, it is not as if someone (as Jupiter alludes) was sitting in Whitehall playing chess with the Libyan people's lives. It is taking this conspiracy theory a bit too far. There was a kid in Tunis who burned himself, which then started the chain of events we have witnessed (Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya...). It is a stretch to insinuate that the burning of this kid was somehow orchestrated by the west. The Arab revolution started in Tunis, not in Whitehall, nor Brussels, or Langley, VA. Everyone was scampering to catch up with the events, decision to intervene or not to intervene by the west was not an easy one. Once they did, they (like Jupiter) had to take this to its logical conclusion. No-one wants to fight with one had tied behind one's back. Use both hands and go all out. A half-arsed effor t only kills more people.
>
>The world does not really need Libyan oil. It has been off-line for 8 months now, and no-one missed it. In fact, over here, pump prizes went down by 78 cents a gallon from the time Libyan oil stopped flowing to now. From the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, when for the first time in the history of the US, we had petrol queues, the US government has put in place plans such that this never happens again.
>
>Jupiter writes that the west wanted a weak Libya, and with this intention, they went about doing a-b-c-... This is doing a disservice to history, which we were all watching together since February. And if a fallacy is carried on a little too long, it actually generates a life of its own and becomes believable. We all had a front row seat in watching this Libyan conflict, but when I read Jupiter's post (the last one with all these conspiracies on Libya by the west), I wonder what war he has b een watching.. the same with what all of us have been watching? Where is all this French pastry on conspiracies coming from? The unrestrained joy I saw on the people of Libya upon Gadhafi's death: Jupiter claimed this was all choreographed, no-one jubilated, the western media's cameras were biased. On that note, I just throw my hands up in the air!
>
>Prof.
>
>
>
>Ishe komborera Africa (Enoch Sontonga, 1897)
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "samuel moturi" <samoturiy@yahoo.co.uk>
>To: mwananchi@yahoogroups.com, munhumu tapa@googlegroups.com, padare@yahoogroups.com/ A>, zimbabwe2@yahoogroups.com, zimsite@yahoogroups.com, indaba@topica.com
>Cc: ayittey@gmail.com
>Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:35:26 PM
>Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Libya's NTC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The posting of Jupiter is excellent. Jupiter you are a deep thinker.Gadafi was wanted out because of tbe reasons u have advanced.No more no less. A change for worse is Not worthy It.
>@ George! Plz be civil and use good language. It costs nothing to be so. Base language and insults don't Add value to the fora. Sam
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 01:14 GMT Jupiter Punungwe wrote:
>
>>Prof
>>
>>Your mistake is thinking that I am worried about Gadhafi. I am worried about the thousands if Libyans whose lives would have been saved by a negotiated exit for Gadhafi. It was not Libyans themselves who refused to negotiate but NATO proxies.
>>
>>One can understand why. A negotiate solution would have left Libya strong and intact. Now Libya is teetering on the brink of long term instability with it's army destroyed, infrastructure destroyed. I am sure you are aware that Gadhafi was trying to defend all these things for all Libyans not just for himself.
>>
>>Surely you cannot claim that given the standard of life that Temba posted about a few days ago Libyans wanted to fight till their country was unstable.
>>
>>However someone must have known that a weak and unstable Libya would be unable to assert strong control over their resources. Outsiders could easily walk in and extract those resources as is alre ady happening.
>>
>>Only a fool can believe that the ultimate objective was to destroy Gadhafi. The ultimate objective was to structurally weaken Libya, leave her open to exploitation and then rule by proxy-colonialism as is happening in Iraqi. For a long time to come Libya's new leaders cannot do anything without approval from Western capitals. Creating that dependence was the objective of NATO bombing, not freeing Libyans.
>>
>>Libyans still nee to be free. Gadhafi was a dictator over them but right now they are much worse off than they were eight months ago.
>>
>>Jupiter
>>
>>On 30/10/20 11 01:40, George Ayittey wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Jupiter,
>>>
>>> You are either for change or not for change. Asking such silly questions will NOT bring Ghaddafi back. In the struggle for democracy, you lead, follow or clear the hell out of the way. < BR>>>>
>>> Neither me or Prof Simoyi said everything is going to be rosy after Ghaddafi. In the initial stages of/*every*/ successful revolution, there are bound to be mistakes. Hopefully, the NTC will learn from them. If they don't and start repeating the same old stupid mistakes Ghaddafi made, I will go after them with a vengeance. This has happened too often in Africa. We struggle very hard to remove one cockroach from power and the next rat comes to do the same thing.
>>>
>>> Now, if you are going to stand by the sidelines and cheer hysterically every little misstep the NTC makes, then your head needs to be exa mined.
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Jupiter Punungwe < punungwe@gmail.com <mailto: punungwe@gmail.com >> wrote:
>>>
>>> Profs Simoyi and Ayittey
>>>
>>> If Libyans love the NTC so much why is it asking NATO to protect
>>> it from
>>> Libyans?
>>>
>>> Jupiter
>>>
>>> -- "I don't have prejudice against meself. My father was a white and
>>> my mother was black. Them call me half-caste or whatever. Me don't
>>> dip on nobody's side. Me don't dip on the black man's side nor the
>>> white man's sid e. Me dip on God's side, the one who create me and
>>> cause me to come from black and white." -- Nesta Robert Marley,
>>> Jamaican Musician
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
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Sunday, October 30, 2011
USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [Mwananchi] Libya's NTC
Prof:
The salient question stands: If this was a revolt by Libyans, other normal people would assume that they want to overthrow impositions. But they are hard pressed to understand how the unelected NTC's imposition of foreign powers (with manifested interests to tap into Libyan resources) as the internal police of the Libyan society square with this liberation?
How does any half way rational bunch of people revolt in ways that create the vacuum (as you acknowledge) for foreign powers to fill? And you still think this is an indigenous process for empowerment? What is the endogenous value of the liberation when leaders divided by Benghazi, Misrata and Tripoli are now afraid of the general population? I would have been chuckling with pop corn and soda if I did not know the bitter history of Africa and the alternative reality that is created to whitewash the savage exploits.
It is not my saying or conjecture; it is an open secret. The Libyan factions and countries (themselves) cannot contain their glee lest they receive less of the spoils. They are boasting of the critical roles their external forces played in this so called revolt and the fact that NATO bombing provided the impetus to disregard less bloody options. The US discussed the fate of Gaddafi and killing him was on the table. This option was espoused by Hillary Clinton. She even bragged with delight:" we came, we saw, he died."
Prof, how do we convince anyone that snow is snow? How does the need to bomb another nation and assassinate a foreign leader be construed as internal revolt by any definition of self-determination? The layers of deceptions have been peeled. We can accept the endgame for what is was from inception.
Unlike the people-propelled power we saw in Tunisia and Egypt, Libya is a case study in treacherous imperialism. This is reminiscent of cold war's barbaric geopolitics where super powers use Africa as pawns and proxies. In their wake Africa lies in ruins while the spoils are bounties for the foreign victors. Wink, Gaddafi's debt free Libya is already $1 billion in the hole. By the time Western oil and industrial military complexes slice off their shares with arms proliferation in a newly impoverished Libya, it would not be a matter of convincing anyone that the mindless avarice of the foreign bombers was never in the best interest of Libya and, by implication, Africa. Maybe we will see a real internal revolt as Libyans awaken to realities with no magic wands.
I have spoken to African representatives and non-Africans with insights on these things, even far right leaders of think tanks. Nobody is fooled. This was no internally inspired and sustained revolt. The ruse of civilian protection is just that. To the contrary, this is less of a warning to " dictators" and more of an alert on the ephemeral and exploitative nature of Western powers that use double standards, including protecting their own dictators. One thing for sure, powers with nuclear capabilities like Iran would not give up their right to bear nukes. The Libyan lesson will weaken the muscle of the UN because Russia and China are less likely to issue more resolutions that would be manipulated. Syria is a beneficiary of the Libyan mess as China and Libya issued a rare joint veto.
Africa should learn to protect her interest.
Regards,
MsJoe
In a message dated 10/30/2011 7:13:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rsimoyi@comcast.net writes:
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