Thanks my friend. I do not want to keep you silent.
Yes, the Jewish scriptures portrayed Israelites as the chosen people but it is only humans who have the tendencies of being selective or show a sign of favoritism and engage in local context to prove their strength and superiority.
As I have said before, Olodumare does not do any of those immoral things found in the scriptures of Judaism. God does not need to favor any race or nation for any hidden objective intentions.
I want you to enjoy your Sabbath. Maybe after the Sabbath we can continue the debate or when I have time to visit Sweden.
Ogun agbe yin o. Aase.
Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952
--Sir Segun, Philosopher son of Olodumare!
I respect your call "to allow the debate on the matter take a deep rest." – especially since the Sabbath is only about one hour away over here in Stockholm. And I can understand that by this polite request you would like to silence the opposition, thus terminate us with just a few words of wishful thinking from your keyboard.
I'm humming "You know I need your loving, honey why are you so hard?"About Joseph - who became viceroy of Egypt - if you go to the Torah, you will see how the Almighty enters history...One of the most terrible sins between /among our fellowmen is baseless hatred, it can take many forms, bigotry, tribalism, racism, anti-Semitism, the blood libel...
In this our fraternity of fellow human beings, I do not think it is either proper or fair to allow you to pass a number of spurious judgements of the God and His Chosen People – and go unchallenged. It is my sacred duty to correct any public misapprehensions and disparaging remarks about the Almighty, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the fore fathers of the Jewish People and Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, the matriarchs, the mothers...
The Torah was offered to all nations but apart from Israel everyone else, including the great ones had one objection or the other to one of the Ten Commandments, only, Israel the smallest of people said, "We will do and we will hear" With Choseness goes sanctification by fulfilling what can be observed toady of the 613 commandments
What is sometimes identifiable is arrogance is what also passes for Chutzpah otherwise there is something called Lashon Hara - undesirable speech...
Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto´s "The Way of God" is a classic presentation of Judaism that was specially written for someone like you.
The Almighty did not say that you have to become a Jew to be saved. Any human society / people, who abide by the Noahide Laws, are saved.
One last little thing: and I read it this morning: Ohr Torah: The Ethics of Warfare by Rabbi Shlomo Riskin
Wishing you a restful weekend,
On Friday, 29 August 2014 00:17:21 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:Thanks my sister. It was that sheer arrogance that made the brothers of Joseph to hate him and made an attempt to kill him.
OA and Ken missed the point. Assuming the Jews did not arrogate to themselves or live by the tenet of being the anointed race and indoctrinate other races in the world, perhaps there wouldn't have been any good or moral reasons for their persecution.
Christians are no exception in this trade of arrogance. They claim they are a special or chosen people to have the grace to inherit the kingdom of God.
Most Liberal Christians that I know, however do not support such claims at all. All human beings are children of God regardless of race or color.
Come to think of it more seriously, the idea of God is a human invention. It is man in his imagination that made God and not that God made man in his own image. All discourse about God is about man and his interest. No more and no less.
Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952
> On Aug 27, 2014, at 4:21 PM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
>
> 'It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people.' SO
>
> Agreed. It is sheer arrogance and an insult to the rest of humanity.
>
>
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> CT 06050
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> ________________________________________
> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 5:32 AM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
> Thanks OA for your response but you sound like someone who is neither here or there.
> My training teaches me to take a position and defend it with superior arguments.
> God will be an immoral Being if he created the universe only to show that he loves the Israelites.
> In my own traditional belief, Olodumare, the Supreme Being created the universe for human beings to live in and pursue their happiness. There is no record in the oral and written traditions of the Yoruba where Olodumare says He loves the Yoruba more than the rest of the peoples of the world.
> It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people. Only people of weak minds will use a higher authority to coverup their fears and inferiority complex. God is not a human property, if he exists.
>
> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> Professor of Philosophy
> Adekunle Ajasin University
> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> Nigeria
> Cellphone: 08033041371
> 08024670952
>
>> On Aug 27, 2014, at 3:05 AM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <Anun...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I got you SO.
>> It seems to me that if God is what/who he is believed to be in monotheist cultures- omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient among others, it must be a stretch for any human being to subject the claims about God by those who believe in him, to human logic and reason. That to me would be to judge God when all one needs to do is dispute the claims and act accordingly if it was necessary to do so.
>> You ask "Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not. go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not.
>> You state " If he (God) knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone." I will argue that God had to create other people as it would not be possible to "to love the Israelites more" if He created the Israelites only. There would be no people to love less. God had to create other people therefore if He was "to love the Israelites more".
>> The Hebrew Bible says for example that God spoke with Abraham, Lot, Noah, Job, and Moses. Just as no one knows for sure whether or not He did, everyone is free to believe or not that He did or did not. Should anyone be emphatic on what they believe or not? That is not my call. I could go on.
>>
>> oa
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:43 PM
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>> Cc: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>>
>> My dear AO,
>> I am very emphatic that God did not give any land to anyone or any tribe including Abram and Israelites. Human beings apportioned lands to themselves wherever they go and used the name of God to rubber-stamp the claim of ownership.
>> What happened to Abram in Ur of Chaldea was an economic disaster that affected pastoralists of the region. Their animals were dying because there was no rain. So as a reasonable entrepreneur he quickly ran away from the scene of danger. Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land? It does sound to reason.
>> What would you say if the Yoruba go to an Igbo community and say God has given their land to them? You are making God to be the source of conflict and war. Is that what one should believe?
>> Those who wrote the Bible did so from their narrow and parochial interests without considering the moral implications of their views.
>> Secondly, God did not choose any tribe as his own. Let me tell you that the event that Moses recorded couldn't be something that happened during his lifetime. Moses was born in Egypt when his people were slaves. They were slaves there for about 430 years. Moses did not know Abram/Abraham. It was after they left Egypt that he wrote the Pentateuch.
>> On a moral ground, to say that God loves a tribe or a nation more than the rest of the world is to make him an immoral Being. If he knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone.
>> More importantly, to say that the Jews are beloved by God more than Africans and rest of the world is to create hatred for the Jews wherever they are.
>> How many Africans were involved in the canonization of the Bible? It was done by a handful white Bishops. What if the Bible were canonized by Africans? Do you think it would be the way it is? They would have removed various parts of the Bible to suit their interest.
>> God by definition cannot be a Being of immorality, injustice, conflicts and wars.
>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
>> Professor of Philosophy
>> Adekunle Ajasin University
>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
>> Nigeria
>> Cellphone: 08033041371
>> 08024670952
>>
>>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:50 PM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <Anun...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> "God at no time gave anyone a piece of land anywhere."
>>>
>>> SO
>>>
>>> Why is SO emphatically sure? Is he suggesting that the Genesis account in the Hebrew Bible that states God pulled Abraham from Ur in the Chaldees to a new land God set out for him and his descendants is not true? Is he suggesting the dispossession of Canaanites' of their land by Israelites was not carrying out God's will because the land was a gift to then by God? Is SO debunking the claims of some Muslim Jihadists to parts of the world they call Muslim lands- Caliphates? Does SO not know that a "chosen people" are entitled to a divine gift of some other people's land- promised land? My goodness!! Until God speaks, we do not know for sure.
>>> More seriously, land grabbers will always find excuses and other pretexts to practice their trades of greed and exclusion. The pilgrim fathers (U.S.) and the pioneer Dutch settlers of the Cape region of South Africa claimed that the settled lands they occupied were God's gift to them. Israel was established as a Jewish state. Many orthodox Jews in today's Israel continue to claim God gave them the land of Palestine. Many Hindus insist that India is a Hindu and not a secular country. ISIS is following a well-travelled road. Why not one may ask?
>>>
>>> oa
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Segun
>>> Ogungbemi
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:12 AM
>>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
>>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>>>
>>> Yes Gloria. Val Ojo would have given a critical challenge.
>>> God at no time gave anyone a peace of land anywhere. Human beings are characteristically adventurous and any place they occupy, the name of God or Deity is used to justify its exploitation.
>>> God never called anyone for anything.
>>>
>>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
>>> Professor of Philosophy
>>> Adekunle Ajasin University
>>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
>>> Nigeria
>>> Cellphone: 08033041371
>>> 08024670952
>>>
>>>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:01 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of
>>>> the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe
>>>> belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed
>>>> fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire
>>>> to take it from them and give it to us."CH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
>>>>
>>>> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to
>>>> stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?
>>>>
>>>> Empire builders have a lot in common.
>>>>
>>>> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He
>>>> would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
>>>> CT 06050
>>>> africahistory.net
>>>> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
>>>> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>>> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
>>>> [cornelius...@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
>>>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
>>>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Professor Harrow,
>>>>
>>>> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
>>>>
>>>> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
>>>>
>>>> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The
>>>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz= 1T4NDKB_enSE5
>>>> 4
>>>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+ The+Jews&oq=Gi
>>>> n
>>>> zberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312. 15964.0.18224.
>>>> 2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
>>>>
>>>> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?
>>>>
>>>> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb >:
>>>>
>>>> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
>>>>
>>>> Over here this sort of thing<>>>>
>>>> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p= > happens...19334
>>>>
>>>> Holy mother of god!
>>>>
>>>> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
>>>> hi cornelius
>>>> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
>>>> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
>>>> is that right, cornelius?
>>>> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>>>>
>>>> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
>>>> ken
>>>> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz= > has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+ Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l= serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0. 0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52. serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0 se/search?sourceid=navclient& > / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8& rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+ Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB& .> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q= Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+ trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22% 2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq= Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+ trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22% 2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l= serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0 com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en& > . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King ...js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u= http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se% 2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat- skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509. svd&edit-text=
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