Sociologically, there are two types of religions: priestly religion (version) and prophetic religion (version) -- the first committed to the maintenance of social order or the status quo, and the other committed to transforming the social order and status quo. The priestly version is the most dominant in Nigeria today. Martin Luther King Jr. and Liberation theologians are more in the prophetic version. To understand the differences between the two, on needs to look deep into the structure of society, its history and process, and how that shape the consciousness of the human being. There is no religion that can be understood without the practitioners of the religion, and so given that the practitioners are human beings, anything that affects their constitution will also affect the way they practice their religion or even understand it.
The mind of the human being in the 21st century is different from the mind of the human being in the first century. If the scriptures are central to religion, it is also true that what becomes the meaning of religion is contingent on the interaction between the human mind and the scriptures. To assume that the human mind and its consciousness is the same today as it it was thousands of years ago, is to assume that the senior citizen's mind is the same as when he or she was fifteen or less than ten. The same reality might exists but age and maturation affects how that reality is viewed and interpreted with serious implications for social action. It is easy to get around this by saying that the Holy Spirit or God's spirit can guide people to the truth. Empirical evidence suggests many Holy people who claim to have the guidance of the spirit as in Rabbinic Judaism come up with different interpretations, suggesting as in Christianity that the spirit comes in different flavors or so it seems. The controversy then shifts to whose spirit and whose God is most effective. Often when the Israelites were conquered they start doubting their God or even adopt some elements of their conquerors religion. Religious people can sometimes be very pragmatic.
I remember in Sokoto, Nigeria, after I made a comment, one person told me that women are not expected to rule because there is a divine command that they are less intelligent, presumably in Islam. I told him that this is not supported by scientific evidence at all. He reinforced his assertion by saying his comment is true in Christianity too. I kept quiet because our fundamental assumptions about the world are different and the conversation would require serious work. I consulted some other Muslim scholars in Sokoto and they disagreed with the man's interpretation. In a presumably liberal democratic society as John Stuart Mill would argue, all interpretations should be allowed to assert themselves in a free market of ideas and then over time we will see which will survive.
Much about what people make about religion and social reality depends on interpretation, their social context, and experience, even when given the same scriptures. Often religious people avoid this deep thinking because it can be a slippery slope, I understand. But there are many factors that go into hermeneutics. The more one studies religion from a variety of perspectives, the more one feels humbled and concludes that no one single perspective accounts for everything.
Religion is often concerned about absolute truth but anthropological and sociological study of religion shows that when combined with history, the absolute truth is historically relative. Judaism evolved over time. From the religion of a small group of people, it became a universal religion. Christianity triumphed over Roman religion, because it was able to reconfigure itself from an ethnic religion to one where everyone, i.e., gentiles can become part of it. Moreover from a rational choice perspective, worshipping the Christian God was very economical. He loves everyone and commands people to love each other unlike the Roman Gods. He does not demand the kind of sacrifice that the Roman gods demand according to Rodney Stark and when they demand it, they could receive it and abscond. So it was very rational to be a Christian from this perspective. Indeed the literature on why people convert to a faith and maintain their commitment reveals insights different from what religious believers often believe is happening.
But the problem can be solved by understanding that the truth is just what the powerful people decide is truth and if they have the resources, they can increased the social cost of deviating from the declared truth. All religions tend to do that to some degree. Even in America, Alexis de Tocqueville argues that people are free to hold their views but within certain bounds. Once they go beyond the bounds, even though they maybe legally protected, they are punished through the process of social ostracization, which in effect means the formal rights and freedom are substantially diminished by culture and traditions.
Samuel
Samuel
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> From: seguno2013@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 04:11:12 +0100
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>
> You are right. The instrument used to exploit people was the scriptures which justified their exploitation. It was also the scriptures that was used to denounce human exploitation. It is a double edged sword.
> Maybe we have to allow the debate on the matter take a deep rest.
>
> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> Professor of Philosophy
> Adekunle Ajasin University
> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> Nigeria
> Cellphone: 08033041371
> 08024670952
>
> > On Aug 29, 2014, at 2:11 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Segun I agree with everything you said minus your fourth sentence.
> > Don't blame the victim. If there is anyone to blame, it is the people
> >
> > who allowed themselved to be indoctrinated and even so, one has to be careful
> >
> > due to the psychological/ sociological complexities involved.
> >
> >
> >
> > The irony is that the people who carried out the indoctrination in later years were not the Jews
> >
> > but the Portuguese, Spanish, British and French. I doubt that the Germanic looking
> >
> > portrait that became the face of Christianity was of Jewish sponsorship.
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that in the early days the claim for exceptionalism and specialness
> >
> > was tied up with regional politics and land grabbing activities. In later years, after 1500
> >
> > the above groups used the ideology of uniqueness for their own benefit -
> >
> > simultaneously marginalizing the pioneers - in a shrewd game of identity theft
> >
> > that they used to facilitate their expansionist agenda.
> >
> >
> >
> > 'We came here to serve god and to get rich' said Bernal Diaz- without an ounce of shame.
> >
> > The Catholic church soon became the recipient of millions of tons of Native American gold.
> >
> > We can talk about the genocide committed some other day.
> >
> >
> >
> > Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> > africahistory.net
> > vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> > Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> > ________________________________________
> > From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [seguno2013@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 4:51 PM
> > To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >
> > Thanks my sister. It was that sheer arrogance that made the brothers of Joseph to hate him and made an attempt to kill him.
> > OA and Ken missed the point. Assuming the Jews did not arrogate to themselves or live by the tenet of being the anointed race and indoctrinate other races in the world, perhaps there wouldn't have been any good or moral reasons for their persecution.
> > Christians are no exception in this trade of arrogance. They claim they are a special or chosen people to have the grace to inherit the kingdom of God.
> > Most Liberal Christians that I know, however do not support such claims at all. All human beings are children of God regardless of race or color.
> > Come to think of it more seriously, the idea of God is a human invention. It is man in his imagination that made God and not that God made man in his own image. All discourse about God is about man and his interest. No more and no less.
> >
> > Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> > Professor of Philosophy
> > Adekunle Ajasin University
> > Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> > Nigeria
> > Cellphone: 08033041371
> > 08024670952
> >
> >> On Aug 27, 2014, at 4:21 PM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> 'It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people.' SO
> >>
> >> Agreed. It is sheer arrogance and an insult to the rest of humanity.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> >> CT 06050
> >> africahistory.net
> >> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> >> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [seguno2013@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 5:32 AM
> >> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>
> >> Thanks OA for your response but you sound like someone who is neither here or there.
> >> My training teaches me to take a position and defend it with superior arguments.
> >> God will be an immoral Being if he created the universe only to show that he loves the Israelites.
> >> In my own traditional belief, Olodumare, the Supreme Being created the universe for human beings to live in and pursue their happiness. There is no record in the oral and written traditions of the Yoruba where Olodumare says He loves the Yoruba more than the rest of the peoples of the world.
> >> It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people. Only people of weak minds will use a higher authority to coverup their fears and inferiority complex. God is not a human property, if he exists.
> >>
> >> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> >> Professor of Philosophy
> >> Adekunle Ajasin University
> >> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> >> Nigeria
> >> Cellphone: 08033041371
> >> 08024670952
> >>
> >>> On Aug 27, 2014, at 3:05 AM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I got you SO.
> >>> It seems to me that if God is what/who he is believed to be in monotheist cultures- omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient among others, it must be a stretch for any human being to subject the claims about God by those who believe in him, to human logic and reason. That to me would be to judge God when all one needs to do is dispute the claims and act accordingly if it was necessary to do so.
> >>> You ask "Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not.
> >>> You state " If he (God) knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone." I will argue that God had to create other people as it would not be possible to "to love the Israelites more" if He created the Israelites only. There would be no people to love less. God had to create other people therefore if He was "to love the Israelites more".
> >>> The Hebrew Bible says for example that God spoke with Abraham, Lot, Noah, Job, and Moses. Just as no one knows for sure whether or not He did, everyone is free to believe or not that He did or did not. Should anyone be emphatic on what they believe or not? That is not my call. I could go on.
> >>>
> >>> oa
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:43 PM
> >>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>> Cc: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>>
> >>> My dear AO,
> >>> I am very emphatic that God did not give any land to anyone or any tribe including Abram and Israelites. Human beings apportioned lands to themselves wherever they go and used the name of God to rubber-stamp the claim of ownership.
> >>> What happened to Abram in Ur of Chaldea was an economic disaster that affected pastoralists of the region. Their animals were dying because there was no rain. So as a reasonable entrepreneur he quickly ran away from the scene of danger. Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land? It does sound to reason.
> >>> What would you say if the Yoruba go to an Igbo community and say God has given their land to them? You are making God to be the source of conflict and war. Is that what one should believe?
> >>> Those who wrote the Bible did so from their narrow and parochial interests without considering the moral implications of their views.
> >>> Secondly, God did not choose any tribe as his own. Let me tell you that the event that Moses recorded couldn't be something that happened during his lifetime. Moses was born in Egypt when his people were slaves. They were slaves there for about 430 years. Moses did not know Abram/Abraham. It was after they left Egypt that he wrote the Pentateuch.
> >>> On a moral ground, to say that God loves a tribe or a nation more than the rest of the world is to make him an immoral Being. If he knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone.
> >>> More importantly, to say that the Jews are beloved by God more than Africans and rest of the world is to create hatred for the Jews wherever they are.
> >>> How many Africans were involved in the canonization of the Bible? It was done by a handful white Bishops. What if the Bible were canonized by Africans? Do you think it would be the way it is? They would have removed various parts of the Bible to suit their interest.
> >>> God by definition cannot be a Being of immorality, injustice, conflicts and wars.
> >>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> >>> Professor of Philosophy
> >>> Adekunle Ajasin University
> >>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> >>> Nigeria
> >>> Cellphone: 08033041371
> >>> 08024670952
> >>>
> >>>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:50 PM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> "God at no time gave anyone a piece of land anywhere."
> >>>>
> >>>> SO
> >>>>
> >>>> Why is SO emphatically sure? Is he suggesting that the Genesis account in the Hebrew Bible that states God pulled Abraham from Ur in the Chaldees to a new land God set out for him and his descendants is not true? Is he suggesting the dispossession of Canaanites' of their land by Israelites was not carrying out God's will because the land was a gift to then by God? Is SO debunking the claims of some Muslim Jihadists to parts of the world they call Muslim lands- Caliphates? Does SO not know that a "chosen people" are entitled to a divine gift of some other people's land- promised land? My goodness!! Until God speaks, we do not know for sure.
> >>>> More seriously, land grabbers will always find excuses and other pretexts to practice their trades of greed and exclusion. The pilgrim fathers (U.S.) and the pioneer Dutch settlers of the Cape region of South Africa claimed that the settled lands they occupied were God's gift to them. Israel was established as a Jewish state. Many orthodox Jews in today's Israel continue to claim God gave them the land of Palestine. Many Hindus insist that India is a Hindu and not a secular country. ISIS is following a well-travelled road. Why not one may ask?
> >>>>
> >>>> oa
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun
> >>>> Ogungbemi
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:12 AM
> >>>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
> >>>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes Gloria. Val Ojo would have given a critical challenge.
> >>>> God at no time gave anyone a peace of land anywhere. Human beings are characteristically adventurous and any place they occupy, the name of God or Deity is used to justify its exploitation.
> >>>> God never called anyone for anything.
> >>>>
> >>>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> >>>> Professor of Philosophy
> >>>> Adekunle Ajasin University
> >>>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> >>>> Nigeria
> >>>> Cellphone: 08033041371
> >>>> 08024670952
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:01 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of
> >>>>> the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe
> >>>>> belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed
> >>>>> fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire
> >>>>> to take it from them and give it to us."CH
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to
> >>>>> stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Empire builders have a lot in common.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He
> >>>>> would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> >>>>> CT 06050
> >>>>> africahistory.net
> >>>>> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> >>>>> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
> >>>>> [corneliushamelberg@gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> >>>>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
> >>>>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Professor Harrow,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The
> >>>>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE5
> >>>>> 4
> >>>>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Gi
> >>>>> n
> >>>>> zberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.
> >>>>> 2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Holy mother of god!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> >>>>> hi cornelius
> >>>>> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
> >>>>> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i
>
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> From: seguno2013@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 04:11:12 +0100
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>
> You are right. The instrument used to exploit people was the scriptures which justified their exploitation. It was also the scriptures that was used to denounce human exploitation. It is a double edged sword.
> Maybe we have to allow the debate on the matter take a deep rest.
>
> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> Professor of Philosophy
> Adekunle Ajasin University
> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> Nigeria
> Cellphone: 08033041371
> 08024670952
>
> > On Aug 29, 2014, at 2:11 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Segun I agree with everything you said minus your fourth sentence.
> > Don't blame the victim. If there is anyone to blame, it is the people
> >
> > who allowed themselved to be indoctrinated and even so, one has to be careful
> >
> > due to the psychological/ sociological complexities involved.
> >
> >
> >
> > The irony is that the people who carried out the indoctrination in later years were not the Jews
> >
> > but the Portuguese, Spanish, British and French. I doubt that the Germanic looking
> >
> > portrait that became the face of Christianity was of Jewish sponsorship.
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that in the early days the claim for exceptionalism and specialness
> >
> > was tied up with regional politics and land grabbing activities. In later years, after 1500
> >
> > the above groups used the ideology of uniqueness for their own benefit -
> >
> > simultaneously marginalizing the pioneers - in a shrewd game of identity theft
> >
> > that they used to facilitate their expansionist agenda.
> >
> >
> >
> > 'We came here to serve god and to get rich' said Bernal Diaz- without an ounce of shame.
> >
> > The Catholic church soon became the recipient of millions of tons of Native American gold.
> >
> > We can talk about the genocide committed some other day.
> >
> >
> >
> > Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> > africahistory.net
> > vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> > Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> > ________________________________________
> > From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [seguno2013@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 4:51 PM
> > To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >
> > Thanks my sister. It was that sheer arrogance that made the brothers of Joseph to hate him and made an attempt to kill him.
> > OA and Ken missed the point. Assuming the Jews did not arrogate to themselves or live by the tenet of being the anointed race and indoctrinate other races in the world, perhaps there wouldn't have been any good or moral reasons for their persecution.
> > Christians are no exception in this trade of arrogance. They claim they are a special or chosen people to have the grace to inherit the kingdom of God.
> > Most Liberal Christians that I know, however do not support such claims at all. All human beings are children of God regardless of race or color.
> > Come to think of it more seriously, the idea of God is a human invention. It is man in his imagination that made God and not that God made man in his own image. All discourse about God is about man and his interest. No more and no less.
> >
> > Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> > Professor of Philosophy
> > Adekunle Ajasin University
> > Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> > Nigeria
> > Cellphone: 08033041371
> > 08024670952
> >
> >> On Aug 27, 2014, at 4:21 PM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> 'It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people.' SO
> >>
> >> Agreed. It is sheer arrogance and an insult to the rest of humanity.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> >> CT 06050
> >> africahistory.net
> >> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> >> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [seguno2013@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 5:32 AM
> >> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>
> >> Thanks OA for your response but you sound like someone who is neither here or there.
> >> My training teaches me to take a position and defend it with superior arguments.
> >> God will be an immoral Being if he created the universe only to show that he loves the Israelites.
> >> In my own traditional belief, Olodumare, the Supreme Being created the universe for human beings to live in and pursue their happiness. There is no record in the oral and written traditions of the Yoruba where Olodumare says He loves the Yoruba more than the rest of the peoples of the world.
> >> It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people. Only people of weak minds will use a higher authority to coverup their fears and inferiority complex. God is not a human property, if he exists.
> >>
> >> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> >> Professor of Philosophy
> >> Adekunle Ajasin University
> >> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> >> Nigeria
> >> Cellphone: 08033041371
> >> 08024670952
> >>
> >>> On Aug 27, 2014, at 3:05 AM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I got you SO.
> >>> It seems to me that if God is what/who he is believed to be in monotheist cultures- omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient among others, it must be a stretch for any human being to subject the claims about God by those who believe in him, to human logic and reason. That to me would be to judge God when all one needs to do is dispute the claims and act accordingly if it was necessary to do so.
> >>> You ask "Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not.
> >>> You state " If he (God) knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone." I will argue that God had to create other people as it would not be possible to "to love the Israelites more" if He created the Israelites only. There would be no people to love less. God had to create other people therefore if He was "to love the Israelites more".
> >>> The Hebrew Bible says for example that God spoke with Abraham, Lot, Noah, Job, and Moses. Just as no one knows for sure whether or not He did, everyone is free to believe or not that He did or did not. Should anyone be emphatic on what they believe or not? That is not my call. I could go on.
> >>>
> >>> oa
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:43 PM
> >>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>> Cc: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>>
> >>> My dear AO,
> >>> I am very emphatic that God did not give any land to anyone or any tribe including Abram and Israelites. Human beings apportioned lands to themselves wherever they go and used the name of God to rubber-stamp the claim of ownership.
> >>> What happened to Abram in Ur of Chaldea was an economic disaster that affected pastoralists of the region. Their animals were dying because there was no rain. So as a reasonable entrepreneur he quickly ran away from the scene of danger. Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land? It does sound to reason.
> >>> What would you say if the Yoruba go to an Igbo community and say God has given their land to them? You are making God to be the source of conflict and war. Is that what one should believe?
> >>> Those who wrote the Bible did so from their narrow and parochial interests without considering the moral implications of their views.
> >>> Secondly, God did not choose any tribe as his own. Let me tell you that the event that Moses recorded couldn't be something that happened during his lifetime. Moses was born in Egypt when his people were slaves. They were slaves there for about 430 years. Moses did not know Abram/Abraham. It was after they left Egypt that he wrote the Pentateuch.
> >>> On a moral ground, to say that God loves a tribe or a nation more than the rest of the world is to make him an immoral Being. If he knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone.
> >>> More importantly, to say that the Jews are beloved by God more than Africans and rest of the world is to create hatred for the Jews wherever they are.
> >>> How many Africans were involved in the canonization of the Bible? It was done by a handful white Bishops. What if the Bible were canonized by Africans? Do you think it would be the way it is? They would have removed various parts of the Bible to suit their interest.
> >>> God by definition cannot be a Being of immorality, injustice, conflicts and wars.
> >>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> >>> Professor of Philosophy
> >>> Adekunle Ajasin University
> >>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> >>> Nigeria
> >>> Cellphone: 08033041371
> >>> 08024670952
> >>>
> >>>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:50 PM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> "God at no time gave anyone a piece of land anywhere."
> >>>>
> >>>> SO
> >>>>
> >>>> Why is SO emphatically sure? Is he suggesting that the Genesis account in the Hebrew Bible that states God pulled Abraham from Ur in the Chaldees to a new land God set out for him and his descendants is not true? Is he suggesting the dispossession of Canaanites' of their land by Israelites was not carrying out God's will because the land was a gift to then by God? Is SO debunking the claims of some Muslim Jihadists to parts of the world they call Muslim lands- Caliphates? Does SO not know that a "chosen people" are entitled to a divine gift of some other people's land- promised land? My goodness!! Until God speaks, we do not know for sure.
> >>>> More seriously, land grabbers will always find excuses and other pretexts to practice their trades of greed and exclusion. The pilgrim fathers (U.S.) and the pioneer Dutch settlers of the Cape region of South Africa claimed that the settled lands they occupied were God's gift to them. Israel was established as a Jewish state. Many orthodox Jews in today's Israel continue to claim God gave them the land of Palestine. Many Hindus insist that India is a Hindu and not a secular country. ISIS is following a well-travelled road. Why not one may ask?
> >>>>
> >>>> oa
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun
> >>>> Ogungbemi
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:12 AM
> >>>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
> >>>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes Gloria. Val Ojo would have given a critical challenge.
> >>>> God at no time gave anyone a peace of land anywhere. Human beings are characteristically adventurous and any place they occupy, the name of God or Deity is used to justify its exploitation.
> >>>> God never called anyone for anything.
> >>>>
> >>>> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> >>>> Professor of Philosophy
> >>>> Adekunle Ajasin University
> >>>> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> >>>> Nigeria
> >>>> Cellphone: 08033041371
> >>>> 08024670952
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:01 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of
> >>>>> the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe
> >>>>> belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed
> >>>>> fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire
> >>>>> to take it from them and give it to us."CH
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to
> >>>>> stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Empire builders have a lot in common.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He
> >>>>> would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> >>>>> CT 06050
> >>>>> africahistory.net
> >>>>> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> >>>>> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
> >>>>> [corneliushamelberg@gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> >>>>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
> >>>>> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Professor Harrow,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The
> >>>>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE5
> >>>>> 4
> >>>>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Gi
> >>>>> n
> >>>>> zberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.
> >>>>> 2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Holy mother of god!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> >>>>> hi cornelius
> >>>>> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
> >>>>> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i
>
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