Toyin, if i may offer my opinion here. The stern group and irgun group were peripheral. You are right to argue they were there, but you seem to put them in the center of israel's early politics. Begen came quite a bit later. You need to talk about rabin and ben gurion. My impression is that you are conflating this 20 years of monstrous likud politics under netanyahu with the earlier labor.
Did israelis drive out the palestinians in 48? Only somewhat. Were some notorious instances of villages being attacked, but mostly ethnic cleansing occuring. Yes. But was that the whole pattern? No.
That's my considered opinion, which One Palestinian Complete by segev paints in detail.
What followed, with the settlers and then this continued attack on the two state solution, is more and more post Oslo.
I think you have read enough to concede these views. If i am wrong, ok. That's my view of things. The millions of israeli arabs still there attest to a continuing presence since the start.
The wars destroyed much of the early hope of creating a state of jews and arabs.
You might mention too that the stern gang attacked the british who were blocking the immigration of jews in the 40s because the brits wanted good relations with the arabs.
I'll repeat my major understanding: both jews and arabs were divided between those seeking to work and live together and those seeking to displace, drive out the other. Both sides. Not all of one, not all of another. Segev paints a picture of this is detail.
Ken
Kenneth Harrow
517 803 8839
Emeritus Professor of English, Michigan State University
Harrow@msu/edu
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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 12:52:44 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - South Africa Hails 'Decisive Victory' For International Law At UN Court
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2024 12:52:44 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - South Africa Hails 'Decisive Victory' For International Law At UN Court
Thanks Chidi.
-- Verifiable evidence of what?
That Jewish terrorist groups such as the Stern Gang and Irgun preceded and were central to the founding of Israel?
That two leaders of these groups, one being Menachem Begin of Irgun, later became Prime Ministers of Israel?
That these terrorist groups were responsible for displacing Palestinians from their lands even before and after 1948 when Israel was founded?
That these terrorist groups were later integrated into the Israeli army?
That the claim of Israel as purely a victim of aggression is fiction?
A little time would enable me to provide clear sources for such information but why should I spend my time that way?
This is simply a social media debate in which the benefit of such use of time on my part is debatable.
But if you took the trouble to try to disprove any of the claims I making, providing verifiable evidence that my claims are false , you would have demonstrated that your request for verifiable information is worth my investment in time, then I would engage your critique through research.
Meanwhile, you and I are simply two people on opposite sides of the conflict, debating on social media at the level of sharing opinions.
I used to jump at such challenges to provide evidence, quoting general and scholarly sources, but im more sensitive to the use of my time now, requiring the person asking for verification to prove their request is worthy of my taking the time to move beyond the simple task of sharing an opinion.
I could change my mind, when perhaps I think I can afford the time for getting the info and providing it here, but before then I would only proceed further if you do more in disagreeing with me than simply expressing disagreement, which is where we are now.
Thanks
Toyin
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024, 3:03 PM Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
Correction: "verifiable evidence please"
-CAO
On Monday 29 January 2024, Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
Oluwatoyin,Veritable evidence please.
-CAO.
On Monday 29 January 2024, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com> wrote:
--Chidi,
Are you aware that Jewish terrorist groups have been chasing Palestinians from their land before and after 1948?
And that these terrorist groups have been integrated into the Israeli army even as their leaders became Prime Ministers of Israel?
The story of Israel as purely a victim of aggression before and after 1948 is fiction.
Thanks
Toyin
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024, 10:58 AM Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM, CDOA <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
Oluwatoyin,
Your perspective on Israel here as usual advertently or inadvertently failed to take into consideration the events that took place immediately after the creation of the state of Israel.
That those events shaped situations thereafter and currently cannot be ignored by serious unbiased commentators.
-CAO.
On Sunday 28 January 2024, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com> wrote:
The ICJ is a Western created institution, on Western land.
The whole universe knows that Israel's claim to self defense is a most expansive one covering the decimation of Palestinian society as a perpetual deterrent.
The idea of a peace of equals between Israel and the Palestinians not on the table for Israel and her allies, specifically the US, UK and Germany
The UN has done its best but been hobbled by the US, the most powerful Western nation.
Did you expect the ICJ to do the reasonable thing to stop the ongoing slaughter?
Why would they?
We need a restructuring of these international institutions.
What has been achieved by SA is a symbolic victory, bringing to the open what has long been the case.
That Israel is a largely sick country, suffering from Holocaust Induced Trauma, HIT, in which descendants of the dehumanized become dehumanizers.
Thanks
Toyin
--Dear Oluwatoyin,
Given that the ICJ is a competent international body with competent judges in whom we are supposed to repose some trust that they are more than capable of fulfilling their mission which is to dispense justice, could you please tell us why you "did not expect much from the ICJ"?
Here is Jeffrey Sachs' reaction to the ICJ judgement
Ray McGovern & Larry C. Johnson Interview: ICJ Ruling And Israel's LAST GASP
Other reactions to the ICJ ruling on genocide in Gaza
The whole world waited with various degrees of anxiety, in some spheres, perhaps, an increase in the blood pressure among some members of the war cabinet due to some doubts and some fears, both positive and negative, since some of those who wash their hands in the morning to dedicate all their works to Hashem, begin the day with the prayer Rayshis chochma yir-as Adonai ((The beginning of wisdom is the fear of Hashem ) - at least they're supposed to know that, whilst others waited for the ICJ judgement with other kinds of expectations, with hope, even confidence that the ICJ would decree an international warrant for the arrest of Netanyahu and declare a ceasefire that would be legally binding, with immediate effect.
I think that the Mullahs in Iran are the most realistic; they know that even if Mister Netanyahu believes that he is democratically elected and blessed with divine protection, UncleJoe's iron dome etc, he would never set foot in any territory that belongs to the Islamic Republic, speak less of him intending make a state visit and get some red carpet treatment when he knows full well that on his arrival at the Imam Khomeini International Airport, he would be taken into custody directly - as a hostage - and we will all be reading about the international crisis that he would have thereby created, in Tehran Times…
So far it looks like Hezbollah have been biding their time and the war is all set to expand along the axis of the Israel-Lebanon border. A good rule of thumb: Trust in the Lord but don't misunderestimate Mister Hitler…
--On Sunday 28 January 2024 at 16:48:22 UTC+1 Oluwatoyin Adepoju wrote:
I did not expect much from the ICJ
Makes for depressing reading : Chris Hedges: It May be Genocide, But it Won't Be Stopped
--On Friday 26 January 2024 at 23:31:39 UTC+1 Harrow, Kenneth wrote:
Victor is right about this need for justice, and african states to stand up. But again, blinker just returning from angola where a major american deal is concluded…. The money runs the show there. Where does it now? Palestine, where it is blood.Ken
Kenneth HarrowEmeritus Professor of English, Michigan State UniversityHarrow@msu/edu
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From: 'Victor Okafor' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 2:56:51 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - South Africa Hails 'Decisive Victory' For International Law At UN Court--Mighty congratulations to South Africa and its political class, which demonstrably, have not forgotten their history of a prolonged struggle against institutionalized racism that was based on the doctrine of White Supremacy, which in its case was known as Apartheid. Here in the USA, a similar social system of institutionalized racism was known as Jim Crow. South Africa's direct, non-violent action of taking Israel to the World Court over the Palestinian tragedy demonstrates what a people, who are conscious of their history, can do to help others similarly in need. This is a case study of applied history. As the Great Dr. Martin Luther King, jr, put it, "Injustice anywhere, is a threat to justice everywhere." That history apparently gave the South African political elite an acute sensitivity to racial injustice, racial apartheid.
If I may add, there used to be a time when South Africa's northern big brother, Nigeria, also used to stand tall in the international arena, particularly during the heyday of the liberation struggles in Southern Africa, including its epicenters of then apartheid South Africa, Zimbabwe, Namidia, Angola, and Mozambique. As part of a compulsory exposure to a two-sequence course on decolonized African history, our university kids--across the board--should be made aware of that history of a time period in Nigeria's political evolution when it was a pride to be called a Nigerian on the international stage.
On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 12:25 PM Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Sincerely,
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Tel: 734.487.9594Food for Thought:"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass
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Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara
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Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Professional Fellow of Institute Of Information Management Africa, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador, Registered Freight Forwarder and Editorial Adviser at News Updates.More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara
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